Agreed.

However, in light of today's issues with constituionality, the Geneva accords and the rhetoric storms, it is useful to know what has happened in the past and exactly what this country and others have done and the ramifications of those actions.

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

In the face of an unrelenting threat, the economy would become a secondary concern, wouldn't you think?

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1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

http://www.amazon.com/Romantics-War-Glory-Guilt-Terrorism/dp/0691006512/sr=8-1/qid=1157777537/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-5984795-6759961?ie=UTF8&s=books

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/books/reviews/20021206_herrington.html#bio

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I don't have easy answers but I've got better questions than some of what I see going around.

Such as, when Cheney said we'd be greeted as liberators, my question was, "Are you outta your **#*%&*&#* mind?!?

Or when it was said that Iraqi oil revenues would pay for the reconstruction, my question was, "Have you lost your mind??!??"

Or when Rummy said the war would last about 6 months, my question was, "What are YOU smoking?!

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Easier said than done. Specially when you've got one contingent who thinks that "taking the fight to the enemy" is the only way to go. In this case, we don't have a large state with clearly marked army that can be hit to some advantage.

We go in, flail around, and agitate a bunch of people who were previously more or less on the fence regarding hating "the great Satan," we're likely to just spend a lot of money to make new enemies.

I said going in this was a combination tar baby/hornets nest and I got no reason to feel stupid about that prediction.

What did Jesus say about loving your enemies? He said it's easy to love your friends. Even jerks and tax collectors love their friends. I remember in spring '03, they had some coverage of a 16 year old Iraqi girl who'd been pretty badly burned on her face and hands from a missile strike. Her father was trying patiently to get some help for her. The guy looked decent. And the girl brave but scared. I had to respect the guy. He was hauling her around, looking for some kind of medical care and not finding it. He wasn't acting irate or hostile, just firmly, patiently resolute.

The guy didn't stike me as being my enemy.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I dunno. I feel like OBL leveraged a real cheap maneuver, in terms of their investment, into a major score for his side. He's looking more like a prophet than before. He said we were intent on controlling the oil of Arab nations.

We have to quit playing into the Al Qaeda publicists' hands.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

As of 27 years ago, there wasn't a whole lotta sitting on the fence regarding the Great Satan in Iran, as I recall.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

I'm not sure I understand that.

We played into "AQ publicists" hands by having our towers blown up?

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

The government in Iraq, if you can call it that, is about a dead man walking right now. Even Shi-ite leader Al Sistani has been inveighing against the Shia govt. I hear that many Iraqis think that what their new govt. is best at is collecting big salaries then going on long vacations. I wouldn't be surprised if a large number of them are just milking the American cow as long as the milking is good.

I felt we should have liberated Kurdistan from the git go, told Turkey to F themselves, and used that as a base to squeeze Saddam and the rest of Iraq into compliance. Kurdistan was already getting up and running and by far the group most likely to welcome our input.

Turns out Turkey is apparently warming to the idea of an independent Kurdistan just south of their border. They'd have a non Arab, mostly secular state as a buffer against the Shia whack jobs and the Sunni hot heads.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I was talking about Iraqis in that part. 27 years ago, we got our arrogance thrown in our face. Ought not to be using trickery and deception to mold govts. to our liking. How would we respond to something like that? Is that some of what was going on in the 1770s?

I've said and Bot's said it: the youth of Iran are reachable through soft power (well Bot didn't say it that way). If we start bombing, they're going to rally round the flag and we'll set ourselves back another one or two generations.

Khatami was in the NE recently. The Hannity contingent was fulminating, saying this guy's calling for the destruction of Israel. Yo, Sean baby, that's Ach - mahd - dean - a - jahd. Khatami is a voice of sanity in that nuthouse.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

The towers being blown up was horrendous but it was a handful of people who did it, not an entire nation. It's a bit like the reaction of the Lebanese to Israeli bombs. The IDF was hoping they'd turn against Hez. for having brought this crap down on Leb. heads. Just the opposite happened. Not totally logical but somewhat.

I keep saying it. The Hydra headed beast. We're walking that road. We put 15 bad guys in Gitmo for life while Op. Iraqi Liberation enables the recruitment of eager replacements.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Khatami refers to Israel as an illegal state with no right to exist. Moderation is a relative term. He's made that claim several times, some while president and some afterwards.

__________________
-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

And you believe these new "recruits" originally liked America and the west and never would have signed up with Al Qaida and Hezbollah were it not for what Israel did in Lebanon and us in Iraq?

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-livin' in the terminally flippant zone

Iraqis that you know about were signing up with Al Qaeda in droves?

Have you seen any videos about the laying waste to Falujah? Or any vids of former residents railing against Uncle Sam?

AFAIK, no Falujans were causing me grief in Feb. '03. I suspect there are plenty of them now who have been inspired to hate us to new depths.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

I suppose you also fell for the baby food factory bit? Watching a guy in a difficult situation is not evidence as to whether or not he is your enemy.

Radical muslims have declared YOU as their enemy. What are you going to do about it? They don't care whether you think they have redeemable qualities, or that you're an 'OK' guy. They hate you for what you are.

In the meantime, all over the ME, hate-teaching still goes on in their schools, and at this very moment clerics are instilling the same values among their followers.

What we need is direct response. The prisoners in gitmo should all be killed. Likewise with the 12 men in Britain. No trial, no nothing. Their stomachs should be filled with raw pig guts until they explode. Put it on live TV and web feeds so all can see. Lets see some real outrage among the Muslims who are otherwise so silent about terrorism. Let them feel a direct threat instead of protecting their asses under our laws. Then lets see who will step up to the terrorism plate?

Reaching out may be well and good. But how many are really reachable? Are you willing to send your kid to a remote village in Afghanistan to be part of a anti-hate campaign?

__________________
1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma