Calvinism does not deny free will. It simply holds that there are some things humans are capable of on their own, and some things that only God can do.

Most importantly (as a distinction of Calvinism) Calvinists assert that when the Bible says that none seek after God and that all are dead in their sins, it means that in their natural state, no human can or will choose to believe in a saving way. Only after God regenerates the person and gives them spiritual life will they seek after God.

By predestination, Calvinists are affirming what the Bible says about God being the author and perfector (or finisher) of our faith. God has to choose who will be saved and then actively work that faith otherwise no one would be saved. This way, no one will have anything to boast about...none of this "look at me, I chose wisely". All who enter in will praise God for his Grace and Mercy! None deserve to be saved, none choose God on their own...God chooses.

That is, in a nutshell (and IMHO), what Calvinism teaches.

__________________
2009 VW TDI Jetta Sportwagon 172k miles (rear-ended harder than Elton John on 8/4/13. Total loss)

1991 Volvo 240 142k miles (T-boned by a stop sign runner. Total loss)

I think one of the most important points of the Augustinian and Original Sin tradition in both Catholicism and Protestantism is that it denies that the individual can ultimately do any good independent of a social institution. Everyone has to rely upon the grace of God in order to do anything good, and this grace comes thru the Church.
The individual is subservient to the larger institution in this view, as opposed to the larger institution being subject to the will of the individual. It is fundamentally an anti-democratic view of the world.
If Pelagius had won the battle with Augustine the history of democracy in the West might have been different.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Oh that. Original sin is not about free will. It is being born with the absence of God in one's life. It's like being born without the capacity for flight. I'd like to fly and should be able to, if only God would make me so. So he is withholding his love from me for something I never did -- my ancestors failed to breed for flight.

B

The idea of grace flowing to the individual through the church is a Catholic teaching. Protestantism teaches that grace comes to the sinner directly from God.

__________________
2009 VW TDI Jetta Sportwagon 172k miles (rear-ended harder than Elton John on 8/4/13. Total loss)

1991 Volvo 240 142k miles (T-boned by a stop sign runner. Total loss)

I can't speak for all Christian religions. But those few churches with which I have some familiarity do not assert that grace comes from any church (which I here define as a man-made institution ordained by God). Quite the opposite, to say that God's grace comes from a church is blasphemy to the church-goers that I know.

For example, Quakers don't believe as you assert, concerning grace through a church. They are the ultimate inconoclasts, which ironically, it's own icon of their view.

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tarbe, I believe that the historical argument between Calvinists and non-Calvinists is not as you proffered. If I remember correctly, Calvin & especially John Knox asserted that God made everything, past, present and future, else he could not be defined as Almighty and Omniscient. If God knew what was going to happen before you did it then that means that God did not give the individual a true choice, free will is an illusion of our time-dependency.

B

The Bible teaches that Adam represented us as a Federal Head (see Romans 5:12-19). Similarly, Jesus is also a Federal Head. The sin of one is imputed to all, just as the sinless perfection of the other is imputed to those who believe on Him.

Folks generally don't like Federal Headship when you talk about Adam, but they'll take Federal Headship from Christ!


Your analogy about flight is good, as far as it can go. There is a difference between free will and ability. The flight analogy points this out very well. We often confuse the two when discussing this subject.

Were it fails is in the assumption that those who are without God in their life (in a saving way) really want to be submitted to Him, but simply can't. I would contend that those who are at enmity with God may want the things He can give them, but they are not really interested in following Christ or being conformed into His image. The Bible teaches clearly that in our natural, fallen state, none of us truly wants God. It takes a gracious, undeserved act from God to wake us up to the desire for Him. This is consistent with Calvinist teaching. God acts first, then we respond after we've been enabled.

In anticipation of the obvious question - why doesn't God just save everyone then? - I suggest Romans 9.

My $0.02

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2009 VW TDI Jetta Sportwagon 172k miles (rear-ended harder than Elton John on 8/4/13. Total loss)

1991 Volvo 240 142k miles (T-boned by a stop sign runner. Total loss)

That is a philosophical question that Calvinists and Arminians have been debating for centuries.

I contend that foreknowledge does not, in itself, assume that God is the only cause. God can foreknow an event, and allow it to come to pass, without personally causing the event. To say otherwise would force God to be a sinner. God has chosen to allow sin, but He Himself cannot sin.

__________________
2009 VW TDI Jetta Sportwagon 172k miles (rear-ended harder than Elton John on 8/4/13. Total loss)

1991 Volvo 240 142k miles (T-boned by a stop sign runner. Total loss)

This is precisely why humans born after A and E cannot do good. God is not in their life and without God, they cannot choose good. Hence the huge problem with democracy.
I agree that the Quakers are iconoclasts and perhaps the best example of democratic Christianity. But in most Christian denominations, the individual cannot do good without the grace of God. This grace has to come thru an institution such as the Church or for Protestants, the Bible. But in both cases, humans cannot, on their own, without the grace of God, use their minds to create good laws to govern ourselves.
There are lots of machinations by contemporary theologians who try to resolve this problem and admit that good can be done by humans with no knowledge of god or the Christian tradition. But the reason they spend so much time on the issue is because it is a huge problem for democratic theory.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Thru the Bible, typically.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Everybody wants the benefits and none of the bills that come. Nothing new there. In my case, I'd rather not have both if the price is too high.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

What is Federal Headship?
Imputing either sin or sinless perfection from one person to another is incomprehensible to me. How can one person be blamed for another person's sin or be considered morally perfect as a result of another person's virtue?


Can unredeemed people create a good government?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

That is the thing about religion. Besides the fact that it has been handed down so many times that the original story may have been lost. Here is the rule. It is not open to dispute. It is what it is.

Probably not since even redeemed people make mistakes so people in general cannot create a good government.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

This is a better explanation than I can type over lunch http://www.carm.org/doctrine/federal.htm

Without Federal Headship we would be on our own. Sinless perfection is beyond me (or any of us for that matter). So it follows then that Federal Headship is a double-edged sword that means salvation to those who believe.

As to the government question, I think human history has shown us to be very challenged! And that goes for redeemed people as well, IMO.

__________________
2009 VW TDI Jetta Sportwagon 172k miles (rear-ended harder than Elton John on 8/4/13. Total loss)

1991 Volvo 240 142k miles (T-boned by a stop sign runner. Total loss)

I found this on the website:

"It is the teaching that the father is the one who represents his family, his descendents."

I agree where it also states that this is foreign to the modern mind.
I don't think that my father or my mother represents me. What they do is their responsibility and what I do is my responsibility. Of course, together they have an influence on their children for good or bad but how could a child be responsible for the sins of her parents?

Original sin and the doctrine of grace leads to the divine right of kings who are chosen by God to rule just like God chooses people for salvation.

If these aren't the political and social implications of original sin, what are they?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

You put this in almost the exact words one of my very good friends (who is Episcopal Dean) put it several years ago. I like it and completely agree.