Anyone see this insane auction?
 

Amazing to me:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-Plymouth-Cuda-Convertible-V-code-440-Six-Pack-4-sp_W0QQitemZ280069240062QQihZ018QQcategoryZ6409QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#Photo

I wish I found that exact car in an old ladies barn and offered her 500$ for it....

i would not think that high of prices possible with a non hemi car.

looks like one too many zeros to me.

tom w

Dont get me wrong, those cars are probably the best looking vehicles to come out of detroit in the seventies but it's not worth 6 to 7 figures. I would rather have a daily driven clone then blow that much on a "rare" fixer upper.

My thoughts exactly.

i am pretty sure some rare hemi equipped cars have topped the mil mark. a cuda i think.

this million dollar bid has to be fake.

nigeria anyone?

tom w

No,no..this cannot be. I'm in the midst of negotiating for a Goddamn Bugatti type 40 for $35,000.00 and we have this misbegotten piece of poorly cared for crap for how much?Jeez! my partners and I just sold a Superbird with matching #'s for only $20,000.00. Something's wrong.

I cannot figure out how any dodge could be worth more than $5000 hemi or no hemi.

You can thank Barrett-Jackson for this silliness, and this guy thinks Boyd Coddington is going to shell out a million bucks for this piece? Ever see Boyd bargain for a car? It's rusty under the hood for crying out loud...

For a Cuda? This is even beyond Barrett-Jackson.

We must be missing something about this particular car.
I just went through the books for this years Barrett-Jackson. Nothing I found in the Cuda line was a million dollars. The top Cuda was a 71 custom built by Alan Johnson. Went for 588.5K. It was cherry/custom 572 hemi 6-spd. The rest of the original mint restored Cudas went for low to mid 100s. A couple (AARs I think) in the 280.5 to 330.0 range. But nothing looking like this (or mint), for 770K+. Is this the only numbers matching 440 6-pack in existence? Still.....A mill for 70’s muscle? We gotta be missing something.

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/common/cardetail.asp?id=183447

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/auctionresults/common/cardetail.asp?id=182895

Sixto
93 300SD 3.0

Wow. One million for a backyard find and 2 mil. for a fully restored one. I had no idea.

If you're like me and had no idea a 1970 Plymouth could fetch such a price, you may enjoy some further reading...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plymouth_Barracuda

Overvalued
 

:confused: The actual build quality on all of these generation Mopar muscle cars was awful and they were rust buckets too. I remember test driving a '73 Challenger that looked awfully good, but what a tinny, feeling it had. You could tell it was haphazardly put together, and wouldn't last long under normal use. I think that was why not too many survived.

However they could go very fast in a straight line and their design is attractive. A lot of ageing baby boomers seeking to recapture or relive their youth are driving the prices up beyond all reason. Tv shows like Nash Bridges with the Hemi Cuda convertibles and "Vanishing Point" with the Challenger serve to fan the flames.

They are for sure fast noisy and sexy looking but I can't help but think of the Ray Stevens song "Take care of business, Mr. Businessman" with the line "placing value on the worthless, disregarding priceless wealth"

But for a thinking person, the money could be more wisely spent on other cars, or other things actually! But to each their own

Well, they probably gave some poor old lady $300.00 or less for the car,too.
It was probably an old couples dead son's car or something like that and they just stowed it away,and never would have thought twice about it. That's how I got my 1970 Yenko Nova w/14,000 original miles on it. I paid full sticker price of $4,100.00 for it thought to the old guy. He bought ti new for his son as a gift in 1969 for coming home from Vietnam unscathed. The kid drove it for two years, and died in a car wreck w/friends. The old guy put the kids car in the garage,and closed the door,and never touched it 'till I came along 24 years later and bought it. I've had the car for 13 years now,and have put on maybe 400 miles more in all that time. I know it would ebay for a good $180.000.oo all day long if I would ever part with it..Why should I though?

The supposed high-bidder withheld his ID. I imagine shills would want to hide that.

Then again, who knows. Nostalgia is powerful stuff and those muscle car days do bring back some memories of a more idyllic time. No AIDS and no global warming and gas for .35 a gallon.

i'll agree they were built cheap and rust out.if you ever find one that the doors actually close ya better buy it.there used to be a coupe like that in a gravelput about 20 miles from me,it had the rubber front and back bumpers on it though,it was hemi orange.the guy would not sell it.if its still there its gotta be rusted beyond recogniton.

The Seller has brains - sell this sucker now while the suckers are buying. In 15-20 years that'll be a $500,000 car because my generation couldn't care less about a 1970 muscle car (I'm a child of the 80s).

although the functionality of cars of this era made in us, was very inferior to a mb, they actually were very high quality in the drivetrain and would go a lot longer than a benz of the era given equal maintenance.

the driving dynamics though were horrible. wouldnt turn or stop worth a hoot. but they would go like hell in a straight line with the big motor. in this era you could get any mopar engine in any body style. from an enemic slant six to the mighty hemi!

tom w

We had a circle of Hemi Convertibles at Meadowbrook 2 years ago. There was a 'Cuda worth about 3 million there.

Yeah they do nothing for me, its a $50k car tops to me if restored to a solid daily driver. They handle like crap, the interiors don't do anything for me, and the quality is suspect.

To me a 959 or a 288 is much more of a dream car than one of these.

That's not the doing of the bidder, unless the bidder also happens to be the seller :). It's a "private listing" in which all bidder's ID's are suppressed - seller's choice.

FYI, even for auctions that are not configured as private listings, eBay now sometimes anonymizes the bidders as "Bidder 1", "Bidder 2", etc. This can be the case even when viewing the bid histories for completed items. From eBay:

Personally, I don't particularly care for any of this; I prefer greater transparency. I doubt that the folks who run eBay particularly care how I feel about it, though!

The second one sold for about 700K and looks much more like the eBay listing than the first. Except that the eBay car claimed to be complete, but did it say that the numbers matched? Perhaps so, but still, the high bid could be considered to be what the car might be worth, after a complete restoration.

I wondered about that, since all the IDs were hidden.

I never drove a Hemi car but I did drive a larger car with a 440 and that is some serious raw power. In the smaller Cuda, would have to be really fast but I'm thinking of the classic Ferraris one could buy with those $700+ Gs.

Uh, yeah. I know the whole thing about the baby boomers trying to recapture their youth but that's what they were saying when the Ferraris were the thing around '89-90. I think this is just crazy. In 1985, had you asked me whether I would rather own a W126 or that purple Dodge Challenger belonging to the hicks down the street (at the time)... I would have looked at you as though you were insane. Well, I guess I made *my* choice. See sig.

I agree with Hat, $50K car tops in top shape. Peter Egan of R&T agrees, BTW, I read his thoughts on the bizarre Cuda mania but I can't find the issue. It was in Side Glances.

It's just part of the rednecking of America. When I can buy a nice house in Scottsdale, a new E class, a new Mustang GT ragtop (which does basically exactly the same job as the Cuda!), and a *FERRARI DAYTONA CONCOURS WINNER* for the cost of a Plymouth Barracuda, something's gone awry!!

:P

Awry, indeed.

Even a rusted, engineless bare frame will fetch good money. Anything that was an original HEMI.

The american musclecars were an obsession of mine my whole life growing up. I built them up more, bought and sold them every aspect of them. I have lost almost all interest in them though, because they've just become so ridiculous. The fakes out there are endless. Did yu guys know there are more SS Chevelles, and Camaro's of any given year out there, than were ever produced to begin with. You can buy plane jane six cylinder car,put a 454,and muncie 4 speed in it w/proper 12 bolt possi rear-end, and slap on some SS emblems. Making a clone is too easy, you can make all the numbers match very easily also,and people wouldn't even know the difference. When they talk about numbers matching on these old muscle cars, they're only refering to the block , tranny, and rear end being from a cast batch from the year the car was made. In other words, if the car is a 1970 big block 4 spd 12 bolt, the tranny, motor, and rear-end should all be 1970 big block 4 speed 12 bolt. It does not have to be the set that came in the car from the factory. You can have vin tags made, by any number of companies out there producing them, as well as build sheets,and window stickers. If you do them in the correct order,and have them made by these companies everyone's the fool. First the vin tags are easy to get done. The companies don't varify anything and they'll take your word. You can have any vin tag made w/a phone call. Next step, build sheet. theses guys are a little more witty,and they ask for a vin# to show what options you've got etc. Last step after that window sticker. Call classic industries,and they'll ask you for a copy of the build sheet (which you've already falsified,along w/vin number)and the vin number. Voila!! You'll get your brand spankin new window sticker made up and sent to your door for a 1970 SS454 Chevelle,w/black interior, or whatever packages you can think of putting on it. All numbers match now, too. That's the problem,and why I just lost interest. There are afew details I might have skipped, but that's pretty much what these guys out there do.

I will agree that there are probably plenty of fraudulent restorations out there. And, that there's a sucker out there to buy every one of them.

I would also like to think that some of these collectors that are shelling out the real big bucks are smart enough to do the homework on the car long before it even gets near some place like B-J.

You make it sound so easy to produce a fake. I’m sure it is. To some extent. But I don’t think the big collectors are going to fall for it all. Their going to find a glitch in there somewhere that throws up big red flags.

Many of them, that I’ve spoken with, even know the whereabouts of darn near every would-be big buck car in their field. Restored, for sale, or not.

as far as i know they didn't change anything from 66.so if they didn't you are incorrect,i guess i shouldn't say that,most people would think like your talking:if it's a 70 block in a 70 it's numbers matching.but in reality to have a numbers matching block the number stamped in the block on the right side deck, the last 6 digits must match the last 6 of the vin.i am refering to a 66ss which i have and it is numbers matching,i will agree though that as for intakes,heads,exhaust manifolds,trans and rearends,you just have to get stampings before your cars build date and nobody will be the wiser.but on my 66 the 1/4 panels are stamped with the first 5 digits of the vin 13817,which denotes an ss,these would be hard to duplicate,but if you didn't know they were there in the first place(uneducated)you wouldn't think twice about it.i like to go on ebay and check out 66ss's and just cut em apart.i see em with 67 dashboards,seats,steering wheels,door panels.incorrect p.s.,dual cyl master cyls.incorrect vin numbers,later engines and on and on.with all the companies making reproduction emblems etc it is pretty easy to make a fake that would fool 90% of the general public.heck you can even buy a whole new 69 camaro now days.

My buddy has got his '71 Super Bee tucked away in a garage. 440-6pack with pistol grip 4 speed. There are some other rare options on that one. Something like 1 of 99 built though.

Iknow some things are harder to falsify.
 

I know this too, but a good majority of the gen. public doesn't. So many have gone into reproducing the parts, and mix/matching the components on the musclecars though that to find the real deal is a hell of a lot harder than people think it is. This car could be original, and likely it is. But if someone changed out the motor ona 70 Chevelle or Camaro, in 1974 for a different one, in many cases people don't know the difference. I can go on ebay right now, and probably find a motor, tranny, and rear end all cast within months of each other, and stick them ina 1969 camaro, throw some badges on the thing and sell it as a 69SS car, to the guy down the street for $10.000.oo. He'll resell it for $14.000.oo in three to five years. I like the MBZ's we're dealing with, a lot better though. There's just a lot less fraud, and "Slight of hand" if you will, going on with them. This crowd just seems to be more realistic. Granted there are a lot of non-original AMG cars around here, and such. I still don't see very many people trying to pass of fakes, and clones for the real deal though. If I put an AMG body kit on an SEC car, I'd just list it as an SEC w/AMG body kit upgrades. Those morons take a run of the mill grocery getter, and stick SS emblems on it, maybe an SS hood, or something, and advertise it as a genuine SS car when they go to sell it. Some poor other moron buys the thing and is convinced it's an SS. Then he'll run into a guy like me at a cruise, or car show who tells him it's a fake w/o even more than a passing glance at the thing. Instead of being mad at the seller, or even himself, I'm the bad guy, just for telling it like it is. This is what got me fed up with the whole thing. My 1970 Yenko Nova, is the real deal. The car has only 14000 miles on it, and nothing more than some fluid have ever been changed on the car. I know the people who bought it new, from Don Yenko Chevrolet in April of 1970. I've got all the documentation as well. I never passed off my other heavily modified Plane jane 70 Nova as anything more than a modified plane jane car. I could stick SS emblems on it and sell it as one though.

Yep!
 

Got that one right, for sure.

i did not read all the fine print. is this supposed to be a hemi equipped car originally?

tom w

Nick
Your remarks are the most clear and accurate on these cars that I have ever seen in print. I enjoy looking at the enthusiast magazines, but the whole scene has become a magnet for fraud, posers and other negative types, whether in GM Ford or Mopar. I do enjoy the stories about history of original vehicles, though. I always liked those Yenko cars, hang on to yours

I wouldn't give two cents for it.

Why spend that kind of money on a pile of parts when you could drive a 300SL Gullwing coupe? Far more desireable ANY day of the week.

What's so alluring about that thing? Prewar cars are the one's I dream about. I would be considering Dusies for that.

Dude.

Not to be an ass.... but,

use the return key for paragraph breaks -- makes it a lot easier to read.

Amen. One day, by accident, I popped into Seattle's Northgate shopping center while a display of, I forget, about 20 to 30 prewar Rolls Royces was underway. Oh man, there's something to spend your money on. If it's muscle you want, just spend $50 K of those funds on a used S600 and the rest on cars with some real character.

Sorry.
 

I'm sorry, still not used to the way these things are set up. Sometimes when I type things out in the reply box they look a lot easier to read. Then once they get into the bigger, more spread out poster they look totally different.
Thanks for helping out though. I don't want to post anything you folks don't want, or can't read because it looks like a mess. I'll try and be more attentive to it. :scholar:

These big collectors are doing as much if not more of it than anyone else is. They've got the money to make the fakes. They buy a plane jane car, and fund a whole resto.
Along the way, they make what they want out of the car. Because they've got the money they can make an even more acurate example, also. That and the fact that a lot of these collectors don't even do any leg work. Some of these guys do it entirely for the resale, and the money and could care less if the car is real. I've done business with some guys who can't even pump their own gas, and they want these cars. Purely an ego, and money thing. They have no sentiment, and no honor. " If it looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk, it must be a skunk."
This is the mentality these guys have. This is in many cases the extent of the research and homework they do to varify a cars authenticity. People, real hardcore guys who are truely passionate, and knowledgeable about these cars, have found fakes in museums, and high dollar collections as well. In the past this has happened, and in the future it will again. I just smirk at half of the ones, even in Dupont Registry, because it is so clearly evident they are fakes. It makes me sick really.
Most of the 57 Chevy's out there are only 150 Impala cars. How many though do we see all the time, dressed up as Bel-Airs(210's) with the ever so popular side trim with chromed fins, and body kits on them. The 150 was the strippy,and a whole lot more common of a car in it's day It has the small trim which drops down from the body line near the rear window, and goes straight to the back of the car. This car was more luxurious with power steering, and a host of other options not available on the 150 cars. Yet all the ones we see have the big side trim, and full length chrome on them, The Iconic 57 chevy most people know. A lot of people have never seen a 150 car, in reality though, a lot have never seen a real 210 car but just don't know it.....I can tear this stuff up all day, somebody stop me, please. :scholar:

Thanks Jim,
I appreciate, the fact that you can appreciate what I'm saying here. I've got a lot more venting to do, but don't want to aggravate anyone, anymore than I have. I just know the American musclecars, and classics extremly well, and this is sort of like a way to maybe educate people here, about them. The same way you all educate me so much on these Mercedes, of which I know almost nothing about, and am full of hundreds of questions about them.
I want to learn about Mercedes, from you all. I don't try to be a know it all and all my points are based on a lot of years, of study and research, and first hand knowledge, and experiences I've had with the American cars.
I have a lot to learn here about the Mercedes, and welcome anything anyone can teach me. I pay attention to all of your threads, and obsorb as much as I can. This is sort of like my own little way of giving back. I can educate people with questions about the American cars, and will gladly be of any assistance I can to anyone who'd like to know more, or has a question.
I'm not a selfish individual, and enjoy giving back if I can.
Since I really am just learning these Mercedes, I have nothing else to offer. Thanks again Jim.

Best idea I've heard all day..!

So much for what I’d like to think.

Well that sucks. Glad I’m not in that ring.
I guess that might explain why these cars just keep popping up, year after year. I think I’ll stick with the 356’s. Not as much game playing in that ring. At least I hope not. Not into it for resale issues anyway.

I guess I’m just used to putting big bucks into aircraft, not cars, and assumed the auto guys who do the same with cars would be more like me/us.
With aircraft, you usually (often, sometimes, hopefully....) have a full set of logs going back to day one. Separate logs for the engine(s) and sometimes avionics as well. Not to mention, the aviation world has far more rules and regulations that must be followed, logged as well. When we purchase an aircraft. It usually involves spending an all night’r (or two) in a hotel room with boxes of records. It takes a team with some experience, but we can usually catch anything that looks out of sorts. I figured with the money these guys are putting out, they would be more like that.

Well - If these high-roller car guys want to play that game. So be it. I’m with you - Let them have it.

I heard one of those cars restored went for 1 million...and to think I had a white 68 Baracuda with slant 6.

Sounds to me like the body alone could get you five to six figures.
Drop in the right motor, fudge some paperwork....and presto! Mistress can hang up the cameras !!





(You’d have to be able to justify the fudging to sleep at night. But I don’t want to go down that road again.) :rolleyes: :D

I agree.

I'm a 190SL nerd, and I can spot a patched up car just by walking around it. It takes years to glean the knowledge needed to spot a turd. I've seen cars with mismatched parts and floors made out of cardboard and udercoating sell for 20k. The buyer and seller both thought it was a great car, and it was.... for a daily driver at half the price. People are in it to make money, and most buyers think they are all the same.

One of the best lines I ever heard from came from a couple that restores everything from Morgans to Ferrari Daytona's is that "it's only original once", and I subscribe to that theory. You just can't duplicate factory build quality. Have you ever seen the multitude of shows on tv where the restore a car in an hour or less? Look hard, and you can that under the shiny paint and new interior, it's still a beater. It's easy to "restore" a car when you just throw away everything and use aftermarket parts to rebuild the car. It's called a resto-rod, but most people can't see that restoring a car to original takes months and often years to do correctly.

I feel better now, thanks for letting me vent.

Oh man, I would buy:

1930's v12 Packard

Hispano-Suiza

Pegaso. The Spanish Sports car Pegaso was the brainchild of Don Wilfredo Ricart, an engineer who worked at the side of Enzo Ferrari. The goal was not only to demonstrate, that he could build faster cars than the Commendatore, but also to increase the prestige of Spain and to promote a new Iberian economy of the Fifties.

First presented at the 1951 Paris Salon, the Pegaso Z-102 claimed to be the fastest car in the world, and a speed test at Jabbeke in Belgium revealed a potential top speed of close to 250 kilometers per hour, the equivalent of 160 mph. In 1955 the even bigger and more powerful engines of the model Z-103 made their debut. With optional superchargers, the output was up to 350 hp and the top speed 170 mph.

Citroen DS19

1961 Jaguar E type

1950's BMW 503 sedan

and for a daily driver muscle car: 1970 Cadillac Eldorado, with the 500c.i. monster v8.

Ha ha, you are right on. Nothing compares to a early '70s GM big body car, you can drive at 80mph and not hear or feel a thing. Plus they have disc brakes and ice cold a/c. The last of the land yacht cruisers. Build quality on the Buick/Olds/Cadillac cars was very high at the time.

My dad had a 1973 Buck Electra 225, with the 455 motor that he bought when it was less than a year old. Thanks to the gas crisis, we only used it for vacation or towing. It was like watching a ship leaving port when pops backed it out of the garage. Even though it got 10 mpg when towing, it could tow anything, we even moved a friends mobile home a few hundred feet with it once.

I love this thread..

No big. What I do is just shrink the box so that the lines are a lot shorter.

I used to be an aspiring writer and one of my clients makes serious coin as an editor so this is stuff I've spent a little time with.

Oh, and uh sorry, but you've got to hit the return key twice. The space between paragraphs makes it easier on the eyes to keep track of where you are.

That's quite a list. The father of my best buddy in Roswell bought an E-type just after the 2+2 model came out in the mid 60s. Didn't look as cool as the 2 seater but the ambience was still pretty cool. I only road in it a couple of times. They had two sons and I'm pretty certain the wife insisted on the 2+2.

I've always had a thing for an older D-type racer but those things are all but unattainable lessen you've got millions to spend.

The 50s Ferraris really do it for me.