Because, I don't really think upstream production capability is the issue, to what do you attribute the high bbl cost and low margins at the refinery level?

It almost has to be speculation and/or gouging.

__________________
Never a dull moment at Berry Hill Farm.

C'mon man, read the article at least before issuing the talking points

The point of cellulosic (sp?) ethanol such as to be produced by Range and a couple dozen more new plants is that it doesn't rely on food as a raw material. Instead it uses pulp mill by products like bark, pine needles, saw dust, ect....Can use pecan hulls, olive oil pits and on and on.


Don't take this as an endorsement, I have just been following this for a couple of months and the lead man/founder Vinod Kholsla doesn't have a track record for betting on slow horses.

Of course, even with the Sun guy, most of the venture capital came from the .gov.


EDIT: sorry Emmerich, I wrote before I read engatwork's post about using waste materials.

Are we thinking of the same guy who is possibly located in or around Natchez, Mississippi? If so, yes, I have heard of this.

Nope, a colleague of mine here. He thought I had a diesel and wanted to work with me on it. Dang-near worth buying an old diesel just to play with somebody who knows the sandbox.

I believe there are bids going in for the glycol that will be produced by the biodiesel plant in Natchez. The guy I am thinking of will be a raw material supplier to the plant and is trying to get involved in the disposal end too so as not to send back empty cars on the rail spur. Only over heard a conversation about it so don't really know what he intends on doing with it.

Wow, that's industrial scale. Always wondered what happened to all that fired catfish grease from the Delta.

At the risk of a good flaming- why are we doing this then?

__________________
"It's normal for these things to empty your wallet and break your heart in the process."
2012 SLK 350
1987 420 SEL

ADM is a very effective lobbyist!

Ethanol is nothing more than a booty-prize to Midwestern states, particularly as an election looms. It's farmer welfare.

Yeah, but the dollar is practically even with monopoly money now.

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1984 300TD

I was curious about glycerin, something you hear about fairly regularly. Britannica says it's glycerol, a member of the alcohol family. Lot of carbon and hydrogen in it's molecule, one would think it could be simply burned like heating oil, with some modification perhaps.

They mentioned that one of its primary uses in the past was as auto anti-freeze! Considering the toxic nature of what is it, ethylene glycol, one would think that an abundance of glycerin/glycerol might lead to its re-adoption as anti-freeze.

I found adobe doc which goes into some detail about it and claims that glycerol based anti-freeze, propylene glycol, is indeed less toxic than ethylene glycol, and a renewable resource to boot.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Correction, it's MEGA-AGRIBUSINESS (ADM, Cargill, Bunge) welfare.

With diesel rapidly heading north of $4/gallon and much corn being diverted to ethanol while prices for crop or animal production are roughly staying the same, farmers will be taking it in the backside without the benefit of a kiss or a cigarette.

Next spring, hang on tight.

__________________
Never a dull moment at Berry Hill Farm.

Hey but the good news is, instead of pumping nonrenewable oil out of the ground we're pumping nonrenewable water out of the ground to grow the corn.

Onward and upward!

__________________
Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Because I want the farmers to vote for me. Because I want to have the stupid vote so I can continue to get my paycheck. I get to tell the stupid people that "I care about the environment and if you do too, vote for me."

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Here's something interesting in the news:
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/08/brazil.oil.ap/index.html
Tom

It's not just ADM, folks.
There are a bunch of corn-producing states. Income from higher corn prices goes to everybody dependent on ag income --> everybody. That's votes. Especially in ooooh, Iowa, which has those extremely important early caucuses. Politicians like to be well thought-of going into an election.

Also, sugar beets are produced in a number of states. And sugar cane. Golly, think of all the votes floating around dying to be bought.

Conversion of cellulose to fuel is interesting. Back in the olden days that material used to be composed by tilling back into the soil or fermented as silage for winter feeding. Now getting rid of it is a disposal problem so conversion is a useful adaptation.

And think about all of the cellulose that goes into the garbage can -- paper and cardboard.

B