Makes sense except for the part that they don't.

What I mean is that aside from some dramatic errancy before and during the Reformation, most monastics really did live in personal poverty and most of them really were (and are) true believers in their calling. A book about normal (in the sense of the majority of) monastic life would be about 2 pages long and bore people before paragraph 2, page 1.

Day 1. They wake before sunrise an dpray. Then they go to eat and pray. After they eat they pray. Then they go to their chores taking time-out to pray. Then eat punch and pray and then go back to work and pray a bit. Then pray before bathing and after bathing, before supper. Then after supper, nip out for a bit of prayer, followed by Bible study before saying prayers before bedtime.

Day 2. See Day 1. Except Sunday or Holy Days when there is no work, and they can relax with day-long worship and prayer (hence Holi-Days -- holidays).

I'm not saying they weren't true believers in their calling. I'm saying that the religious description of their lives belies the economic components of monastic existence. They couldn't have built their abbeys unless they were doing something to accumulate vast amounts of surplus labor. Part of that surplus arises from their own self-denial but other parts of it (the larger portion??) arose from their trading and productive activity. At either Fountains or Rivaulx abbey, they sold sheep futures to the French, gambling their future sheep production for immediate capital. They owned fisheries at vast distances and farms that required two or three days travel to visit.
So, what I'm saying is that while they told themselves (maybe?) that they were engaging in a religious vocation, they were actually doing pretty much what we do today on a regular basis. They were farming, herding, milling, smithing, etc except that instead of posting on internet forums between productive moments, they went up to the abbey or chapter house to read, think and ritualize. Their personal poverty didn't mean that the institutions that they ran were not economic institutions that functioned using the same kinds of choices that businesses use today.
To put it another way, if you added a chapel, infirmary, and a library to every IBM corporate building, and required all employees to dress alike and pray five times a day, you'd have the modern day equivalent of an abbey. The big difference being, that with the collapse of monarchy and absolutism and the rise of democracy, no one would believe the underlying religious ideology that kept the system intact from a cultural point of view.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Oh. That makes a lot of sense. I misunderstood the previous entry. Probably due to imbibition of ethanol while in front of keyboard.

B

I have been in Joyce Meyers' place of business, some years ago.

I gotta say, I have never seen so many cassette tapes in one place in my life.

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Palangi

2004 C240 Wagon 203.261 Baby Benz
2008 ML320 CDI Highway Cruiser
2006 Toyota Prius, Saving the Planet @ 48 mpg
2000 F-150, Destroying the Planet @ 20 mpg



TRUMP .......... WHITEHOUSE
HILLARY .........JAILHOUSE
BERNIE .......... NUTHOUSE
0BAMA .......... OUTHOUSE

I was apprenticed for a brief period with the minister of an inner city black Pentecostal church. Instead of a salary, the church simply gave him a credit card and told him to spend away. Not such a good idea in my view.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Joyce Meyer's office complex looks like something a fancy pharmaceutical company or tech outfit might operate, except for the big cross on the perfectly manicured lawn. There's probably $100K just in the black wrought iron fence around the compound. Her home is also tacky and overdone, with lots of security, fences and gates. Low class hillbilly with lots of cashflow...

Having said that, I frequently listen to a radio station that has preachers on 24-7, and try to pick up their cadence: these guys (and gals) are master salesmen, selling something that can't be seen or felt, and people will pay every week. I have picked up some pitches and selling tools from these guys.

__________________
2002 Ford ZX2
2 x 2013 Honda Civics

I used to live in Tulsa, Oklahoma, home of many faith healers, radio and TV evangelists, "missionaries" to Africa, etc. There was a lot of questionable stuff like extravagant art collections, car collections, expensive offices and cars, that didn't seem to have much to do with their supposed message.

One can ended up with a very jaded view of such things after a while . . .

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

Seems not atypical for inner city Pentecostals. One of the hallmarks of Presbyterians (PCA) is accountability. Every position of authority is accountable; helps keep honest people honest.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Yep, can't get any more Scottish than that.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Did you read that Richard Roberts (Oral's son) just got booted from his job at ORU for misappropriation of funds. His wife was also misappropriating young college boys.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

And that is bad, how? If that makes them more skeptical of things people say as opposed to taking it wholesale, how is that a bad thing? If it hurts the other institutions, maybe they should police themselves.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I'm going to have to agree with aklim on this one.
Nowhere do I read that Christians are perfect. They are forgiven, but still full of defects as human beings. Christians need to be " wise as serpents". Unfortunately, too often they are eaten by serpents.
Its easy to masquerade as a Christian; its easy to pretend to be a pastor. Many independent denominations do no even have rigorous requirements for ordination, so anyone who can convince a handful of people in a chirch can be ordained.
Con men specialize in seeming sincere. Some Christians are not wise.

Reminds me of the old story about the judge, asking the convicted embezller, "Son, How could you steal like that from people who trusted you?"
The convice replied, " You Honor, that is the only way you can steal from some people"

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

I think I did hear something about that. I get alumni stuff from them all the time, but I don't really pay much attention to it. It usually goes straight into the trash can.

That doesn't surprise me at all. I have met Oral and I thought he was not so bad. Richard always seemed like a complete opportunist and utterly insincere. The school was good, though. I got a first class education there.

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

Being jaded is bad in the sense that it makes one cynical. Not everyone or everything is necessarily bad, just because it resembles something that IS bad. I'm sure all politicians are not bad, liars, theives, or insincere, but some are. If you become jaded because of those, then you will dismiss any who might be good, honest, sincere, etc.

__________________
" We have nothing to fear but the main stream media itself . . . ."- Adapted from Franklin D Roosevelt for the 21st century

OBK #55

1998 Lincoln Continental - Sold
Max 1984 300TD 285,000 miles - Sold
The Dee8gonator 1987 560SEC 196,000 miles - Sold
Orgasmatron - 2006 CLS500 90,000 miles
2002 C320 Wagon 122,000 miles
2016 AMG GTS 12,000 miles

Maybe jaded and cynical are too strong. Let me just say, I am waiting for a politician to convince me that he/she has the Country's best interst at heart, and not his/her "legacy", or financial well-being.
I actually know of a few on the local or even the state level that seem to be honest "statesmen, or stateswomen". By the time they rise to national power, they seem to have lost all of their idealism that might have led them to chose a political career. Once you see that "everyone" is doing it, and no one is held accountable, it gets easier to "reward" oneself with the benefits of political office.
Maybe jailing of corrput politicians once in a while would be a good thing. Remember Congressman Jeffers ( DEM. Louisiana) who had tens of thousands of dollars in ill-gotten cash, stashed in his freezer, and appropriated a Humvee and its rescue crew to retrieve it during the Katrina mess? The House was more incensed by the FBI's actions in searching his office than in Jeffers' theft. Pelossi made many statements about how the dems would clean up corruption in Washington, but even reinstated him to his committee assignments.
So, yeah, maybe its best to say, " I am waiting" for a nationel-level politician to show his or her integrity, rather than to say I'm cynical of the whole bunch.
Dionycius and I are still looking!

One more illustration--here in MARYLAND (democrat controlled). The legislaure had an " Special Session" the end of last year to raise Billions in new taxes--without even having a budget passed that showed a need for the increased income. While engaging in this massive tax increase, the MD Senate adjourned for three days. The MD State Constitution requires that if one house adjourns during a Special Session that it must have the approval of the other body. The MD Senate Did NOT have this permission, and in fact forced the Clerk to back date the notice of the adjournment.
The dems' response is that it is " no big deal". WHAT!! They can ignore the Constitution and the Law and it " no big deal". I bet if I decided to ignore the law requiring me to pay income taxes, they would find that a big deal.

The way thay cavalierly dismiss the violating of the constitution shows the contempt they have for law, and the citizens of the state of Maryland.

There! I feel better.
( Stepping down off the soap box....)

__________________
1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags