It has been proven that restriction on lawful ownership increases crime.

The FBI proved it, there is a big write up by two scholars that proved it by an exhastive research study.
All the articles are on the NRA wbsites.

Look at Great Britain, heck, not only did violent armed crime increase due to restrictions, but the poor saps who protect their home and property are considered the criminals when they harm the bad guys and do long jail sentences while the criminals go home with a slap on the wrist.
No freaking joke.

Look the district of columbia with the highest crime rate in the nation.
The good guys are disarmed and the bad guys have free reign.

You watch how quickly that crap stops if the CCW laws ever get passed.

Go look the articles up on the NRA websites, they are very informative and written by some pretty smart guys. I don't have the time to feed you the articles myself, but you naysayers always want proof, but when presented with it, you still deny it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3CEKPvzFeHsC&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=legal+ownership+of+firearms+and+crime+rates&source=web&ots=TC7ZFBPtfA&sig=UUtd8VrrdVpTEA0gYkIoKTVgs1Y#PPA203,M1

"The aggregate level analysis of violent crime rates indicated that the net impact of all the various individual effects of gun possession, was not significantly different from zero."

http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=98
"The empirical evidence as to the success of the Washington, DC, handgun ban is mixed. Loftin et al. (1991) used an interrupted-time-series methodology to analyze homicides and suicides in Washington, DC, and the surrounding areas of Maryland and Virginia before and after the introduction of the ban. They included the suburban areas around Washington, DC, as a control group, since the law does not directly affect these areas. Using a sample window of 1968-1987, they report a 25 percent reduction in gun-related homicides in the District of Columbia after the handgun ban and a 23 percent reduction in gun-related suicides. In contrast, the surrounding areas of Maryland and Virginia show no consistent patterns, suggesting a possible causal link between the handgun ban and the declines in gun-related homicide and suicide. In addition, Loftin et al. (1991) report that nongun-related homicides and suicides declined only slightly after the handgun ban, arguing that this is evidence against substitution away from guns toward other weapons.
Britt et al. (1996), however, demonstrate that the earlier conclusions of Loftin et al. (1991) are sensitive to a number of modeling choices. They demonstrate that the same handgun-related homicide declines observed in Washington, DC, also occurred in Baltimore, even though Baltimore did not experience any change in handgun laws.7 Thus, if Baltimore is used as a control group rather than the suburban areas surrounding DC, the conclusion that the handgun law lowered homicide and suicide rates does not hold. Britt et al. (1996) also found that extending the sample frame an additional two years (1968-1989) eliminated any measured impact of the handgun ban in the District of Columbia. Furthermore, Jones (1981) discusses a number of contemporaneous policy interventions that took place around the time of the Washington, DC, gun ban, which further call into question a causal interpretation of the results.
In summary, the District of Columbia handgun ban yields no conclusive evidence with respect to the impact of such bans on crime and violence."

I think it's telling that there is a study entitled, "More Guns More Crime", M. Duggan and a study entitled, "More Guns Less Crime" by John Lott.

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1984 300TD

If there is no difference between handgun ownership and non-ownership then wouldn't it make sense to you that gov should err on the side of liberty?

I don't think (and neither have I ever said) the 2nd Amendment should be repealed, no. i don't think handguns should be banned either. Somewhere in this or the other thread, I wrote what regulations I think should be in place. They are not much different from current rules regarding vehicle operation, except background checks and a waiting period.

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1984 300TD

Chuck says "Quit whining and let the big boys take care of business."

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Tankdriver,
My apologies. I did re-read your posts and you are correct. I was incorrect in categorizing you with DA. Your posts do have far more merit however I became a little caught up in the moment.

DieselAddict,
The problem with the statistics provided by Zeus/Canada is that they are firearm related only. Quite obviously the US will have higher rates of all crime involving firearms as they are far more abundant here. What has not been factored, and I have not seen evidence presented to the contrary: After Canada, Britain and Australia passed firearm bans and severe restrictions their crime rates increased. That is an undisputed fact. This may not be directly related to the passage of said laws as correlation is not causation as Bot has pointed out. The US has a violent society, we have major drug and gang problems. Our crime rates will likely be much higher than any of the countries listed simply due to that fact. Again, I ask for proof that gun restrictions actually REDUCED crime. Not crime with guns, crime overall. The distinction is important. Reducing firearm related crime while maintaining the same over all crime percentages does nothing. Except trample my rights. RT

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When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
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Hey RT -

Just to clarify - the stats I provided do focus on firearms, but overall the entire homicide rate in Canada is lower than the US. This includes all homicides, independent of what weapon(s) was used. This is per capita data.

"Rates for all homicides are 3.8 times higher in the United States than in Canada. For 1987-96, the average homicide rate was 8.8 per 100,000 people in the U.S., compared to 2.3 per 100,000 in Canada."

Canada's gun laws have been in place a long time. There wasn't really a sudden 'clamp' down on laws, so to say. Handguns have been restricted for a very long time and as noted, rifle ownership remains high. We had a small arsenal up at our farm for a while - shotguns, 308, M1, 22, etc.

Overall crime rates have dropped slightly in the past 10 years.

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Chris
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"And a frign hat. They gave me a hat at the annual benefits meeting. I said. how does this benefit me. I dont have anything from the company.. So they gave me a hat." - TheDon

No problem. I've been caught up in the moment a few times.

pt145ss, cars aren't weapons.
Also, Lott is the guy who Botnst posted about regarding his study and the problems with it.
He gives examples of multiple shootings abroad, but I notice that there are so many more examples from the US. Lott's gotta go back to 96 to find one in Australia. So pointing out that they have isolated incidents while we have recurring incidents is contrary to his attempted point.

As for Klebold, he used a gun that was purchased legally before being sold illegally to him and Harris. And none of their victims were old enough to possess firearms anyway, were they? And it seems clear he was pro-gun ownership, just not legal ownership.


What resonates with me regarding gun ownership are the right to protect oneself and others, and the right to use them to defend against an oppressive government. Anything else can be easily argued against. I cannot imagine any argument against the right to self preservation or the right to overthrow a totalitarian.

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1984 300TD

Not to the government it wouldn't.

- Peter.

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Formerly...
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1984 123 200
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