, read the 9/11 Commission Report and then tell me about falsified intelligence.

B

This is not a point you can argue aginst.
The fact is that the president and the vice president both lied about
Weapons of mass destruction.
They did not exist.
They were told that they did not exist by the CIA and others.
People specifically sent to find out if anyting did exist came back and
said no, nothing exists.


RichC

.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

,
1. Why do you avoid knowledge of that which you allege?
2. Prove it.
3. They did.
4. False.

There was absolutely no personal attack in what I said.
I did attack your points of view and what you said.

I think it would be extremely hard for your carbon footprint to be smaller.

We run our vehicles on waste vegetable oil.
One of which was rescued from the junk yard.

Our home is all electric, and we buy electricity from Green Mountain energy, and is generated solely by wind and water power.
Where they do use any fossil fuels they make up the carbon points
by planting trees.

We recycle, reduce, and reuse, what we can.
Which is allot.

I wear lots of second hand clothes.

Most of our food comes from local grown, organic sources.

And I have produced a fertilizer called Tera Preta that
actually traps carbon for use in growing plants.

We are getting close to being carbon negative.

It is not pie-in-the-sky idealism.
I put effort into what I think is right.
Public transportation cuts down on energy use.
Get you and your radioactive device a bicycle.

I agree, ethanol is a joke, money making scam.

Enough solar energy falls on the planet in one day to power
the world for a year.

There are some idiots in this world.

I am not for big government.
I do not need the government to play mommy and daddy for me.
The government is what has gotten us into this war and this energy mess.

That is what was in the story by the general you quoted.

Go rent and watch a movie called Who Killed the Electric Car.
Then get back with me on that one.

Yes, especially after we use up all the oil.

No, it is people like you that have to put me in some sort of category.
Personally I am a realist.
I try my best to see the world for what it is,
and to make the best decisions I can for all involved.

I am honest, wise, and content.
How well do you sleep at night ?

Wow, that is not arrogant at all !
Your fear based, self centered, ego driven, hedonism is disgusting to me.

My way, or what you call utopianism,
is not impractical,
I live it.
And many others do too.


RichC

.

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

Burning veggie instead of diesel does not reduce your carbon emissions. Think about it.

B

I do not wish to go find the links yet a third time.
Go look them up in the last thread where you started this.

If you cannot see that there were massive amounts of bull**** and
manipulation behind getting this war started you need to do some
more reading.

No wait, I will provide some links.
Here is some reading for you.

Now this is the end of this argument !

• Lie #1 - Uranium from Niger - Bush said "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa." in his State of the Union Address. The documents supporting that statement were forged.
• Lie #2 - Iraq and 9/11 - Bush led people to believe that Iraq was involved with 9/11 by repeatedly linking them in his speeches. This was so effective that at one point 70% of Americans actually believed Saddam was behind 9/11. Bush has since admitted that this was not true.
• Lie #3 - Congress Knew - Bush has stated that Congress had access to all the same information that the White House had. Thus he should not be blamed for making the mistake of going to war. But Bush was briefed many times about the falsehood of various stories and this information never reached Congress. [ZNet]
• Lie #4 - Aluminum Tubes - Bush, Cheney, Rice and Powell said that some aluminum tubes Iraq attempted to buy were intended for use in a uranium centrifuge to create nuclear weapons. These were the only physical evidence he had against Iraq. But it turns out this evidence had been rejected by the Department of Energy and other intelligence agencies long before Bush used them in his speeches. [NYTimes] [MotherJones] [CNN]
• Lie #5 - Iraq and Al Qaeda - Bush still insists that there was a "relationship" between Iraq and Al Qaeda. But the 9/11 Commission released a report saying, among other things, that there was no "collaborative relationship" between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The nature of the relationship seems to be that Al Qaeda asked for help and Iraq refused. Al Qaeda was opposed to Saddam Hussein because Saddam led a secular government instead of an Islamic government. [ZNet] [CNN] On 9/8/06 a Senate panel reported there was no relationship. [ABC]
• Lie #6 - Weapons of Mass Destruction - Bush insisted that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction but his "evidence" consisted mostly of forged documents, plagiarized student papers, and vague satellite photos. The United Nations was on the ground in Iraq and could find nothing. After extensive searches Bush was finally forced to admit that Iraq did not have weapons of mass destruction.
• Lie #7 - Mobile Weapons Labs - Bush and his team repeatedly claimed that Iraq possessed mobile weapons labs capable of producing anthrax. Colin Powell showed diagrams of them at his speech before the UN to justify invading Iraq. These claims originated from Curveball, a discredited Iraqi informer who fed Bush many of the stories related to WMD. On May 29, 2003, two small trailers matching the description were found in Iraq. A team of bio-weapons experts examined the trailers and concluded they were simply designed to produce hydrogen for weather balloons. But, for over a year, Bush claimed these were part of Iraq's bio-weapons program. The expert's report was suppressed and only recently made public. [WashPost] [ABC]

Here is a link that all of the hyperlinks work on.
http://www.impeachbush.tv/args/iraqlies.html


RichC

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__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

1. The link to Niger was proven by Joe Wilson, who later changed his story (to put it diplomatically) for his NY Times article. Look it up.

2. The link is in your mind, not mine. I heard the same speeches.

3. Congress had access to the same information. Whether they chose to review it is their decision.

4. There were mixed interpretations from intel about the tubes. If you view the evidence in a time sequence then you'll understand that initial reports and later reports differ. You know, as people learned more.

5. Read the 9/11 Commission Report. There were periodic talks that started early and were not friendly but became friendlier with time. Read the report yourself, don't take my word for it. Do your own research. Learn on your own, not what some knucklehead tells you.

6. Wrong. Ask the Kurds & Iranians about their dead from poison gas attacks.

7. The weapons lab thing was based on aerial reconnaissance. It wasn't proven otherwise until ground inspections. Ground inspections weren't possible until after Saddam was deposed. Can you guess why?

You cite a source that is plainly biased. Good job!

B

.

Ok Bot.

I see that nothing will convince you but words straight from the
horses mouth so here you go.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/08/21/bush-on-911/


RichC

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__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

.

And here, the white house concedes that the president lied.

http://www.laborlawtalk.com/archive/index.php/t-95822.html


RichC

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

.

Is there a source that I can have that you will not consider biased.

I mean the sources were from everone from Mother Earth News, to ABC

what more do you want ?

__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

I don't buy that, although I have no way of knowing what was in the minds of the Democrats who voted in 2002 to authorize the use of military force in Iraq. There is no doubt in my mind that the Administration lied, repeatedly, about the supposed threat posed by Saddam, but I doubt that people like Hillary Clinton and John Edwards were fooled by those lies. The lies, combined with many honest errors, mislead the public and therefore provided political cover for Clinton and Edwards to vote in favor of the 2002 resolution, but I doubt that those votes were cast in good faith. Of course, I don't know everything they knew, so I could be wrong. I just think that if there was a good reason for authorizing force, we would have heard it by now.

Please explain how Saddam's past attacks against the Kurds and Iranians have any relevance to the supposed threat that Saddam posed to us in 2002.

Yes, that is an assumption that I made.
That some of the participants may have been swayed by the bull.
I cannot truly know why they voted the way they did.
But the broad statement by Bot that the Democrats voted for the war
before they voted against it needed some prefacing.

Even I was swayed further to the side of war than what I thought I
would be. But I never crossed the line.
And in light of these later events, I am glad that I was not put into a
position of having to vote one way or the other.

My main argument was that the democrats may have been swayed by the
bull, and that they are not wishy washy as was suggested by Bot.

I get tired of Right wing Republicans blaming everyone else for the
problems in the world.

And I have a big mouth, and balls enough to say what I think.

Thanks

RichC

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__________________

When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.
Jimi Hendrix

W had a good reason to think that Hussein had weapons. Ronald and Poppy sold them to him. Then turned their back on him. Just like they did to the Iranians. No wonder nobody over there likes us.

I find it funny that Bot claims he isn't a republican. His was probably the most desperate defense of the Bush administration that I've ever seen.

Let's not forget the famous quote of Chenney in the run-up to the war : "There's no doubt that Saddam Hussein has weapons of mass destruction." I remember when I first heard him say that that was the time I completely turned against the prospect of invading. I knew that statement was complete BS given what we actually knew and what we were seeing on the ground. Needless to say I was not surprised when no such weapons were found.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL