What is Law? - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

EricSilver · #16 05-08-2008, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Legality is mandatory only to the degree that one maybe caught. Doesn't prevent illegal activity, just makes lawbreakers careful.

Same with morality. God will getcha in the end.

The only true law, therefore, is self-control, guided by some moral compass.

kerry · #17 05-08-2008, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricSilver

The only true law, therefore, is self-control, guided by some moral compass.

My experience has been that people from a highly legalized society, like Saudi Arabia under Sharia law, lack their own internal moral compass because it simply isn't necessary. The law provides the only compass the society needs. People from societies like that have a difficult time understanding what an internal moral compass is. Their decisions are determined by an external system of reward and punishment either in this life or the next.

Botnst · #18 05-08-2008, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

My experience has been that people from a highly legalized society, like Saudi Arabia under Sharia law, lack their own internal moral compass because it simply isn't necessary. The law provides the only compass the society needs. People from societies like that have a difficult time understanding what an internal moral compass is. Their decisions are determined by an external system of reward and punishment either in this life or the next.

Hence, an explanation of behavior of some of them when NOT in KSA.

EricSilver · #19 05-08-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

My experience has been that people from a highly legalized society, like Saudi Arabia under Sharia law, lack their own internal moral compass because it simply isn't necessary. The law provides the only compass the society needs. People from societies like that have a difficult time understanding what an internal moral compass is. Their decisions are determined by an external system of reward and punishment either in this life or the next.

Sharia law (like the laws of all societies) is simply an externalization of their inner compass. The law provides/reinforces their compass, but their compass created the law.

I think, because they they are very clear on what their internal moral compass is, it seems "unnecessary" to the extent that it has become ingrained into their thoughts and behavior. Instinctive.

As for an external system of reward and punishment, this country is no different. Out legal system is based on punishment (for transgression) and the dominant religions promise reward or punishment for good/bad behavior. No real difference in structure.

John Doe · #20 05-08-2008, 01:27 PM

So far today a big waste of time. These poor defense lawyers

have been sitting waiting our turn until we broke for lunch and now we have to go back at 2pm to try to finish a day long conference by 5pm.

EricSilver · #21 05-08-2008, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Hence, an explanation of behavior of some of them when NOT in KSA.

The very wealthy/priviledged ones are the biggest infidels. The poor(er) ones are suckered into Islamic dogma. But then, that is also true everywhere.

MS Fowler · #22 05-08-2008, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

How do you fit together this general theoretical understanding with law in a modern democratic secular society? I'm thinking you don't believe that the government should require everyone go to church on Sunday (or Saturday if we follow the 10 commandments). What about speed limits? Do you think they can be traced back to a divine origin? What about stoning rebellious teenagers or forbidding the sale of pork?
In other words, do you think there is or should be any connection between the legal system under which we operate in the US and divinely revealed legal systems?

In a word, "NO"
We do not live in a theocratic State; ours is a secular society. Or maybe its a theocratic society under a different god than the one of the Christian Scriptures. Hmmm.

I was speaking ( or rather, writing from a historical perspective). When I say that all laws derive ultimately from God, I also understand that man's idea of God, and therefore "Good" is severely corrupted.

As for stoning teenagers---with the rash of teacher assaults here in the Baltimore area, that idea might fly--especially with the teachers union.

The problem that I see with applying biblical laws is deciding whether the situation cited in scripture is typical, and universal ( Thou shall not murder), or for a specific instance, a specific time in history, or a specific individual. For instance, the test of Abraham to sacrifice Issac was a one-time test for that patriarch; not a general law for all civilisation. Too many people want to simply "proof-text" an idea, and that is not really taking the time to understand what the Bible really says.

I do not want to see anyone using the intimidating power of government to enfore their view of biblical ( or Islamic, or Jewish, or even atheistic) law.

MS Fowler · #23 05-08-2008, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricSilver

Sharia law (like the laws of all societies) is simply an externalization of their inner compass. The law provides/reinforces their compass, but their compass created the law.

I think, because they they are very clear on what their internal moral compass is, it seems "unnecessary" to the extent that it has become ingrained into their thoughts and behavior. Instinctive.

As for an external system of reward and punishment, this country is no different. Out legal system is based on punishment (for transgression) and the dominant religions promise reward or punishment for good/bad behavior. No real difference in structure.

I really disagree. If Muslims had this inner moral compass you would not see the rampnat sexual behavior many of them display when away from KSA.

EricSilver · #24 05-08-2008, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I really disagree. If Muslims had this inner moral compass you would not see the rampnat sexual behavior many of them display when away from KSA.

Clarify for me: Are you implying that sexuality is immoral; or are you saying they are hypocrites for not following their own rules?

By engaging in rampant sexuality, these individuals are following their moral compass, which happens to be inconsistent with Sharia/other laws their societies established for themselves.

aklim · #25 05-08-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Legality is mandatory only to the degree that one maybe caught. Doesn't prevent illegal activity, just makes lawbreakers careful.

Same with morality. God will getcha in the end.

That may be why religion was invented. Even if you escape mortal justice, you still will get your's in the next life.

kerry · #26 05-08-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EricSilver

Sharia law (like the laws of all societies) is simply an externalization of their inner compass. The law provides/reinforces their compass, but their compass created the law.

.

I don't think there's any evidence that this is true. From my conversations with the people in question, they lack an internal moral compass and are not embarassed in any way to describe and discuss this lack. They find it beyond their comprehension that people would follow the law or be moral from internal motivation as opposed to external threat.

I think that they were never afforded the opportunity in their personal lives to develop a set of moral values specific to themselves and independent of the larger legal/religious system.

kerry · #27 05-08-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

In a word, "NO"
We do not live in a theocratic State; ours is a secular society. Or maybe its a theocratic society under a different god than the one of the Christian Scriptures. Hmmm.

I was speaking ( or rather, writing from a historical perspective). When I say that all laws derive ultimately from God, I also understand that man's idea of God, and therefore "Good" is severely corrupted.

As for stoning teenagers---with the rash of teacher assaults here in the Baltimore area, that idea might fly--especially with the teachers union.

The problem that I see with applying biblical laws is deciding whether the situation cited in scripture is typical, and universal ( Thou shall not murder), or for a specific instance, a specific time in history, or a specific individual. For instance, the test of Abraham to sacrifice Issac was a one-time test for that patriarch; not a general law for all civilisation. Too many people want to simply "proof-text" an idea, and that is not really taking the time to understand what the Bible really says.

I do not want to see anyone using the intimidating power of government to enfore their view of biblical ( or Islamic, or Jewish, or even atheistic) law.

How do you see your situation as a Christian? Do you find it regrettable that we live in a society without divine law and you wish it were otherwise, or do you relish the freedom of a religiously neutral legal system?
Do you see our Christianity leading you towards a religiously pluralistic (from a legal point of view) society or is it just something you tolerate?

kerry · #28 05-08-2008, 02:08 PM

[QUOTE=EricSilver;1848483] these individuals are following their moral compass, QUOTE]

I think they are following their sexual urges which have never been disciplined by an internal compass. They have been disciplined only by the Chodorah.

EricSilver · #29 05-08-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I think that they were never afforded the opportunity in their personal lives to develop a set of moral values specific to themselves and independent of the larger legal/religious system.

I think they do have a moral compass; it is clearly telling them that their society's values and practices are wrong, and need to evolve.

aklim · #30 05-08-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

They find it beyond their comprehension that people would follow the law or be moral from internal motivation as opposed to external threat.

Here is the problem. With the fact that enforcement is not seen as certain and the punishment is not severe enough, how do you know they won't follow the law? For instance, if the fine for going 100 in a 65 was $5, do you think I will stick at 65? Now if the sentence for doing 100 in a 65 was summary execution, I think I will be going 60.