My first prayers in an Istanbul mosque - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #1 06-03-2008, 10:40 AM

Arrived in Istanbul by train this morning. Attended afternoon prayer at the first mosque founded after Mehmet the Conquerer took the city in 1453. It's just beneath the Galata tower. The view from the top of the Galata tower has got to be one of the best in history. I was imaging Greek sailing ships bringing wheat from the Russian steppes around the golden horn to feed Athens during its Golden Age and British warships heading up the Bosphoros to fight the Crimean War.
Walked by the headquarters of the local council of the Turkish Communist Party and saw Turkish translations of Che's diaries for sale in bookstores. Visited Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches still functioning in the heart of the city. I think the Catholic one is a remnant of French influence in the region.

rs899 · #2 06-03-2008, 11:44 AM

Cool Beans.

I hope you will be visiting Hagia Sophia as well. That would be the reason I would go to Istanbul.

djugurba · #3 06-04-2008, 12:25 AM

Sounds like an amazing trip. Taking pictures I hope...

Whatever you do, don't say "Seek-Eee-Sark-Ick." Will not help you make friends.

kerry · #4 06-04-2008, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djugurba

Sounds like an amazing trip. Taking pictures I hope...

Whatever you do, don't say "Seek-Eee-Sark-Ick." Will not help you make friends.

Should I ask our Turkish hosts what that means?

Visited Hagia Sophia today. Breathtaking.

Vladamir · #5 06-04-2008, 06:07 PM

One of the best cities in the world to visit!....amazing to think that Hagia Sophia has been standing for over 1400 years and through numerous earth quakes!

Vronsky · #6 06-05-2008, 08:49 AM

..tried the nargile yet?

Don't leave the place without seeing Topkapi, and try those figs locals sell everywhere: yummy !

t walgamuth · #7 06-05-2008, 09:47 AM

I'm jealous.

Tom W

djugurba · #8 06-06-2008, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Should I ask our Turkish hosts what that means?

Visited Hagia Sophia today. Breathtaking.

Under no circumstances! My turkish friend (the actress on Bicak Sirti: look at 33 seconds in: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38LVN8wgiUY) said it's among the worst things to say to another person... something about improperly restrained male genitals...

Isn't Hagia Sophia a museum now? It's incredible. Canan has shown me pictures.

djugurba · #9 06-06-2008, 01:52 AM

Isn't the marble jar there? - the one carved from a single piece of marble?

tompaah7503 · #10 06-06-2008, 05:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djugurba

Isn't Hagia Sophia a museum now? It's incredible. Canan has shown me pictures.

It's open for visits during non-prayer hours.
It looks truly amazing, I looked at it from outside. I didn't dare to go in, it's a very holy place for moslems and I want to respect that, I wouldn't like if tourists came and wandered around in places that I consider holy (if any).

Istanbul is quite amazing, you really get a sense of history there. As you walk around the streets you'll stumble on some brass plaque explaining that this stone or this water well has been here for 2000 years. I felt very humble there.

Just over the street from Hagia Sophia is this thousand year old water reservoir underground, go visit it if you are around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basilica_Cistern
The roof is upheld by 336 marble pillars that are all individual in appearance.
There's even an antique joke down there, the Turks turned one specially carved stone upside down as a middle finger gesture to the Romans. I find it hilarious.

Been around a lot of western cities of which most of them feels about the same, but Istanbul was truly different!

kerry · #11 06-07-2008, 04:34 PM

I've now been to Izmir, Antalya and we're now in Konya, the city of Rumi. Swam in the Mediterranean Sea for the first time in Antalya surrounded by Russian women in bikinis.
Hagia Sophi is now a museum. Atataruk refused to let it be a holy site for either Christians or Muslims by turning it into a Museum. The Blue Mosque, almost right next store is the holy Muslim site in the area. We did visit it during non-prayer hours. It also is very impressive.
I did see the marble jar and the unbelieveable underground cistern with Medusa's head turned on its side.
The food has been absolutely terrific with our Muslim hosts putting on elaborate feasts for us. Had some ice cream made with goat's milk yesterday.
We've been traveling in minibuses, mostly VW's that resemble Sprinters and hold about 16 people. We have been in some Sprinters, something called a Prestig and tonight a Peugot minibus. Finally seeing more 115's and 123's in the heart of Turkey.
So far, my Muslim hosts have been pretty tolerant of me, which as you can imagine says a lot for their skills in this area. The Gulen movement has the potential in my opinion to be the version of Islam that is able to make the accommodation with the modern world in a way that will satisfy many Muslims, allowing them to advance economically in a capitalist system while retaining a version of their religion that won't constantly be odds with what other Muslims see to be an external imposition of cultural values.
I need to inquire as to the extent that the movement extends into Europe. One of our guides is a German born Turkish Gulen follower who emigrated to the USA.

Botnst · #12 06-07-2008, 05:29 PM

Thanks for the travelogue, Kerry. I have never heard of the Gulen movement.

Wkipedia, here I come!
B

Botnst · #13 06-07-2008, 05:39 PM

Kerry, here is what Wikipaedia says about the controversies surrounding Gulen.

B

Controversies

Gülen is a highly controversial figure in Turkey. Despite his large number of followers and significant influence in Turkish society and politics, he has been living in the US since 1998. While his followers and a significant part of Turkish society respects him as a humanistic figure at the service of Islam, a large fraction of society perceives him as a significant threat who aims to transform the country's secular system, allegedly by gaining followers in high places and brainwashing school children.[21]

In 1998 a scandal developed in which Gülen was claimed to have urged his followers in the judiciary and public service to "work patiently to take control of the state."[22] Several months before this scandal broke, Gülen had moved to the United States, to receive better treatment for his health problems (he suffers from diabetes and a range of its side effects) though some allege that this move was made to avoid his standing trial in person. In 2000 Gülen was prosecuted for inciting his followers to plot the overthrow of Turkey's secular government. He was acquitted in 2006.[23]

The authenticity of the tapes used in the scandal is debated. Gülen himself explained that the footage in question was completely taken out of context (he was giving advice to a group of official employees who felt marginalized by other groups within the state system that wanted them gone), and that he can't be judged for intents, only deeds.[24] Accordingly, he advised them that they should not relinquish their careers out of religious fervor but that they should remain in order to do good for the people, even if this meant not practicing their religion in the open. However, critics of Gülen argue, Gülen's own writings, some of which is quoted below, are in accordance with the ideas mentioned in the tapes; he pushes to make Islam the guiding principle in society while at the same time advising his followers caution and an embracing attitude until the conditions are ripe.[17]

Gülen's appeal to various ideological strands in Turkey differs. His supporters probably constitute the most influential Islamic and political movements in Turkey both for its human and financial capital. Various other shades of the Islamic movement and conservative segments of society are generally sympathetic to him. His detractors are mostly in the nationalistic wing of the secularists, critical of his alleged affinity for a theocratic society and his strategic support from the US. For the elites, the ranks are broken by certain liberals, who point out that Gülen's group, at least in its public representation, has proven to be most willing to evolve and most open to international influence.

Due to its spearheading westernization and secularization since the late Ottoman era, and later founding the secular republic under the leadership of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the military has always viewed Islamic movements with suspicion and since the 1980s has identified Gülen's group as a threat to the republic. In 1986, a military court revealed Gülen's supporters had infiltrated the military academy and the group was purged[18]. From then on, the Turkish military has repeatedly alleged that Gülen tries to infiltrate its ranks and pressured politicians to take action against Gülen.[25]
Gülen was widely criticized in 2004 when he, in contrast with his public calls for tolerance, commented that he considered terrorism to be equally despicable as atheism.[26] In a follow-up interview he declared he did not intent to equate atheists and murderers; rather, he wanted to highlight the fact that according Islam both were destined to suffer eternal punishment in hell.[19] Gülen does not deny the idea that there is Islamist terrorism,[27] that is, he agrees that such terrorism exists but argues that Islamist (a violent deviation from the true path) is not Islamic or Muslim, and has written an article in response to the September 11 attacks saying:[28][29]

We condemn in the strongest of terms the latest terrorist attack on the United States of America, and feel the pain of the American people at the bottom of our hearts.

Controversies over Gülen are even enhanced by his interfaith dialogue activities including meeting with the Pope John Paul II.

kerry · #14 06-08-2008, 01:06 AM

On of the big benefits of this trip is that we are traveling with Gulen's followers and meeting with them in their homes and businesses. It is also the downside of the trip. We are not meeting with Turks opposed to the Gulen movement. I was aware of this problem going in and tried to arrange a meeting with a Turkish immigrant in Denver who is not a Gulen follower. It's also clear that the movement, if it has political intentions, would not be interested in revealing those to people like myself. In fact, it would reveal it to no one since it is a crime in Turkey to argue for Sharia law.
All that being said, my experience with Gulen's followers, is that their version of religion is at its core a personal internal religious transformation. It is a religion of the heart, not of politics and law (as far as this is possible in Islam). I think this is largely because it is a Sufi movement. Sufism has a long history in Turkey, unlike in Saudi Arabia where Sufism is rejected.
The whole issue is complicated by the fact that Turkey is arguably the most secular country on the planet when looked at thru its constitution, so the state/religion debate here is different than the state/religion debate in the US. For instance, the military in Turkey carries the moral burden of assuring that Turkey remains a secular country. I think few US generals feel any duty to assure the secularity of the USA.
This is compouinded by the sexism of the Gulen movement and Islam in general. I've only met one Gulen female follower who wasn't wearing the headscarf. I can't imagine any reasonably enlightened 'western' or 'westernized' woman being very happy at the gender roles in Gulen's movement. It's been a fairly frequent topic of discussion on the trip since we have a female Mennonite minister with us.

kerry · #15 06-10-2008, 01:53 PM

We met with the Foreign Affairs Editor of Zaman this afternoon, Turkey's largest newspaper, (circulation 850,000)founded by a sympathizer of Gulen. He gave us a really clear account of the recent history of Turkey and the conflict between the military elite and the current political parties. He formulated the conflict in terms of a battle between the wealthy military/bureaucratic elite and the rising middle class which maps onto a secular/religious difference. This seemed pretty reasonable to me but I have to read more to fairly evaluate his point of view.
We then visited Fatih University, a large private university created by the Gulen movement. This is where the whole issue of tolerance, interfaith/intercultural dialogue as advocated by the Gulen movement becomes suspect. As much as the movement encourages dialogue, tolerance and conversation, it does not have a single course in Comparative Religion or any course on any other religion. It has a pretty well rounded Philosophy curriculum but it is clear that the Muslim point of view is integrated into those courses, which is good and to be expected.
But to lack any academic study of other religions at the premier university of the movement leaves me with the impression that the tolerance/dialogue component of the movement is an attempt to manipulate foreign countries into supporting the growing business class of Turkey against its military elite by showing a face of an open Islam. This doesn't mean that I think the Gulen movement is secretly seeking a Sharia based society, but it does mean that I think that it's commitment to religious diversity is at best skin deep, and at worst potentially just a propaganda move. This is not to say that the individuals involved in leading our trip are not themselves personally committed to serious intercultural dialogue.
Perhaps there are other reasons why such courses would not be offered but they would certainly be standard fare in most Philosophy departments (or Religious Studies department if there is one) at most US colleges and universities. They did seem to have all the other standard courses a department in the US would offer with the exception of nothing on Eastern Philosophy that I can recall. I did ask our guide (a Chemistry Professor) about the issue but did not get a clear answer. He did say that the government did not control their curriculum apart from requiring some Turkish history courses and courses in Ataturk's principles.
Conservative Christian colleges in the US sometimes (often?) lack such courses because they tend to be corrosive of claims to religious exclusivity since students start asking themselves lots of questions when they take them. Not offering such courses helps to maintain religious conformity in a society.
So when the Gulen followers indict Turkish elites for disregarding democracy by not allowing women with headscarves in the university, it might be equally fair for the Turkish elites to complain that the Gulen movement disregards its own committment to religious freedom by failing to teach its followers about the content and practices of religions other than Islam.