Paging Hatt--Teleflex steering

[John Doe]

Hatt, are you familiar with Sea Star or Bay Star systems? I have a couple of questions. I can take it to pm if you want.

[Hatterasguy]

A little, steering isn't my strong point. Shoot me the questions though and I'll see what I can do. PM or here, doesn't matter.

[John Doe]

Its no biggie, but I am buying the second 'kit' (includes pump and shaft) for the stern end in two years for my cc. Also last year, I bought a kit for the helm end, due to the same symptoms. The wheel just spins freely, and it takes like ten turns to move the motors 6". I googled, and there aren't a lot of complaints about the product. But apparently, the shaft seals on the helm and the stern pump fail, cause a hydraulic leak and are easily replaced. I think lack of use is a big factor. My question to the guy doing the work is why a whole new kit, not just replacing the seals like everyone else seems to do? He hasn't given me a satisfactory answer. I am sort of an easy target, because I am 700 mi. away. The kits are around $100 and $300 for shop time. Not that bad, but this is essentially the third time in two years. I am going to call another dealer (SeaHunt) in the area and see if they will just replace the seals. If you have an easy way to see if I am correct in my diagnosis, I'd appreciate it. I've got to have it fixed in the next two weeks, one way or the other.

[John Doe]

Now I am a little twitchy: the helm seal kit at West is $9.99 and the local shop rate time is 1.0. The stern piston seal kit is $29.99 same labor. I am going to order the parts and have my man what does the yard and plumbing do it. *********s. You would think the dealer I bought from (two boats) would want repeat business.

[SwampYankee]

Originally Posted by John Doe

Now I am a little twitchy: the helm seal kit at West is $9.99 and the local shop rate time is 1.0. The stern piston seal kit is $29.99 same labor. I am going to order the parts and have my man what does the yard and plumbing do it. *********s. You would think the dealer I bought from (two boats) would want repeat business.

I can't think of any legit reason not to just replace the seals on a 2 yo system. Seems like the dealer doesn't know who he's dealing with!

I had a Teleflex system on my '69 Whaler Nauset, don't have any idea what model it was, but I had to replace the stern seals twice. I never had a problem with the helm seals, probably since they were protected by the console unlike the stern one that was always exposed to the elements.

[John Doe]

Rleo--I can only see your response in my email notification--can't see it here--maybe you deleted it? Anyway, this was my first plan, but after a diligent search, it doesn't look like a common problem. If not sitting up, I guess I could have a lemon, and the seals are failing b/c the cylinder or shaft is not machined properly? I just need the boat on the water soon.

PS: know much about Saab marine diesel engines--got some problems there too

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I can't think of any legit reason not to just replace the seals on a 2 yo system. Seems like the dealer doesn't know who he's dealing with!

I had a Teleflex system on my '69 Whaler Nauset, don't have any idea what model it was, but I had to replace the stern seals twice. I never had a problem with the helm seals, probably since they were protected by the console unlike the stern one that was always exposed to the elements.

I'm absentee owner, so I guess he just thinks I won't check.

A Whaler forum is where I found the step by step repair and tracked down the parts. My 86 Mauntauk didn't have a Teleflex system, but that is because I stupidly (got tickets for over powered) ripped the 90 Merc off it and replaced it with a used 120 Evinrude with Morse controls and steering.

[SwampYankee]

Originally Posted by John Doe

I'm absentee owner, so I guess he just thinks I won't check.

A Whaler forum is where I found the step by step repair and tracked down the parts. My 86 Mauntauk didn't have a Teleflex system, but that is because I stupidly (got tickets for over powered) ripped the 90 Merc off it and replaced it with a used 120 Evinrude with Morse controls and steering.

That's the sad thing, the vast majority never do!

I reckon with a 120 it must have gone right along at a pretty good clip! I had a 90 Johnson (that I shaved the heads on because the previous owner warped them just enough to leak) and it was pretty quick. I ran it that way for 3 years, problem free, before selling it. Damn I miss that boat.

There are a couple of guys out on Block Island with 150 Mercs/Mariners on their Montauks. They definitely have a little git-up-and-go!

Just get a decal kit for a 90 Ev and no one will be the wiser. My father rebadged a 125 Force to a 90 on his 18' aluminum Starcraft CC river runner for that very reason. Although some, he and myself included, might say that a 125 Force is about equivalent to a 90 anything else anyway. With Doel Fins it would fly, though, almost like a bass boat at speed. He was much more judicious with the "power", unlike my brother and I. That stupid thing just kept going and going and was about as simple as you can get (it was a post-Chrysler, pre-U.S. Marine model). He finally replaced it with a new Yamaha 70 which is just about right for that boat.

[R Leo]

Originally Posted by John Doe

Rleo--I can only see your response in my email notification--can't see it here--maybe you deleted it? Anyway, this was my first plan, but after a diligent search, it doesn't look like a common problem. If not sitting up, I guess I could have a lemon, and the seals are failing b/c the cylinder or shaft is not machined properly? I just need the boat on the water soon.

PS: know much about Saab marine diesel engines--got some problems there too

I pulled it because after I posted, I realized I made some assumptions and used the wrong terminology.
______________________________

Marine hydraulic steering is usually based on a radial piston pump that's integrated with the helm and acting directly against the steering ram(s) or, with an assist system that's electrical or driven by the engine.

The multiple turns needed to get any steering are probably from a low fluid level due to the leak...these systems don't really hold a lot of fluid and IIRC, the helm pump body usually acts as the reservoir consequently, a small leak causes a big problem. Are you sure the prior pumps were bad? I'll bet not...

Also, do you know where the leak is? If it's repeatedly leaking at the helm either the seals aren't standing up to the service or, the helm shaft is damaged during repair or maintenance (shaft goobered by service tech when replacing seals) or, the the helm shaft is corroded from exposure. Similar seal failures could be experienced at the rams as well. Failure from exposure seems unlikely since these are designed for marine service...I suspect poor repair technique has hosed the helm shaft or rams.

If you aren't seeing any leakage at the helm or rams, there has to be a leak somewhere else that the tech has overlooked through carelessness or neglect.

This same sort of steering is used on forktrucks and some of those sit for long periods of time and are still reliable.

Good luck...you're an absentee boat owner. Caveat Emptor

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

I reckon with a 120 it must have gone right along at a pretty good clip!

Yah, I got a picture of me at the helm someone took from shore, and the only thing in the water was the lower unit Even with the Doel-fin, it still listed to starboard about six inches hauling ass if I was the only one in it. Stainless prop, of course

I did try to find a cowling off a 90 but of course it didn't fit and I blew it off until I got busted. Thrice. Keeping at a slip 200 yds. from a major US Coast Guard Station didn't help

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by R Leo

I pulled it because after I posted, I realized I made some assumptions and used the wrong terminology.
______________________________

Marine hydraulic steering is usually based on a radial piston pump that's integrated with the helm and acting directly against the steering ram(s) or, with an assist system that's electrical or driven by the engine.

The multiple turns needed to get any steering are probably from a low fluid level due to the leak...these systems don't really hold a lot of fluid and IIRC, the helm pump body usually acts as the reservoir consequently, a small leak causes a big problem. Are you sure the prior pumps were bad? I'll bet not...

Also, do you know where the leak is? If it's repeatedly leaking at the helm either the seals aren't standing up to the service or, the helm shaft is damaged during repair or maintenance (shaft goobered by service tech when replacing seals) or, the the helm shaft is corroded from exposure. Similar seal failures could be experienced at the rams as well. Failure from exposure seems unlikely since these are designed for marine service...I suspect poor repair technique has hosed the helm shaft or rams.

If you aren't seeing any leakage at the helm or rams, there has to be a leak somewhere else that the tech has overlooked through carelessness or neglect.

This same sort of steering is used on forktrucks and some of those sit for long periods of time and are still reliable.

Good luck...you're an absentee boat owner. Caveat Emptor

Yeah, I'm where you are at, just didn't explain it as pretty. It was definitely leaking from the helm seal last time--visibly and you could push the ram in with your hand, so it was definitely blown out in the arm there this last time. Its not an exposure issue--the thing stays in dry storage and sits in a sling even when at the dock. I did not think the pumps were bad--I just didn't check the bill until way after I had paid it. I just ordered the seals, printed out the diagrams from the Whaler site mentioned earlier and am going to mail both to our helper and let him take a crack at it--he maintains his own commercial fishing boats. Hell, I could do it from the looks of it--but what kind of vacation would that be?

[Hatterasguy]

Pff Coasties are no fun!

Not sure but it sounds like an internal leak, since the system is so new I don't see why they wouldn't just redo the seals. Unless one of the sealing surfaces is messed up, like the shaft.

Marine hydraulic steering systems are usualy pretty trouble free, I never really had to deal with any problems with them. Sorry I can't be of much more help to you.

Post your diesel problems in the diesel forum, you might be surprised and get the info you need.

[R Leo]

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Pff Coasties are no fun!

Until the waves turn the minutes to hours...

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by R Leo

Until the waves turn the minutes to hours...

You got that right.

I deserved every ticket I ever got in Charleston: legs hanging over the side in the harbour (several), open container (many), not enough life jackets, no whistle, paddle, overpowered (3x), ect....I was 19-21. They knew me and were always friendly and probably could have arrested my punk-ass on more than one occasion. Now I count 'Coasties as some of my best friends. They saved my ass in 1988 and when I am up at my place in VA in the winter, I hang out with them on their little outpost at the Narrows at Cricket Hill, VA. Even been flounder gigging in a Zodiak with twin 300 egg beaters When they rotate out I keep up with some of them via email and Xmas cards. Drove one to the emergency room 50 miles away one time when he broke his leg when we were playing volleyball on the 'base' (more like a beach house with a radio room). I miss ya and hope you are well, Vinnie Lichtenstein

[Hatterasguy]

Oh I was just joking!

Open container laws what? My docking skills improve as my BAC goes up! You should have saw me slip my friends Chris Craft on the trailer after a 12, it couldn't have been any more perfect.