Affirmative Action discriminates. Using race, not grades, for law schools. - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Idolotor · #1 10-01-2008, 01:40 PM

I guess if you're white, good grades aren't enough to get you in to these Arizona law schools...

Affirmative action backfired based on fairness against racism... figures.

Study: Minorities get better shot at law school

[URL="http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/127090#slComments"][COLOR=#800080][COLOR=#0000ff]
Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services

A study by an organization opposed to affirmative action concludes that minorities are far more likely to be admitted to the state's two public law schools than similarly qualified whites.
The report by the Center for Economic Opportunity shows that the number of whites, Asians, Hispanics and blacks admitted to the law colleges at Arizona State University and the University of Arizona is pretty much in proportion to the number that apply.
But it also finds that both schools admit minorities with lower grade point averages and scores on the Law School Aptitude Test than whites.
At ASU, the median LSAT scores for blacks admitted in 2007 was 8.3 percent below whites; and a 6.7 percent difference exists between Hispanics and whites, according to the report. At UA, the median LSAT score for blacks admitted in 2007 was 15 percent below whites; and for Hispanics, the difference was 10 percent.
For grade point averages for the same incoming class, there was a 7.5 percent difference between the scores of whites versus blacks and Hispanics.
The result, according to Roger Clegg, the organization's president, is that everything else being equal, a black person with equal grade point average and LSAT scores is 250 times more likely to be admitted to the UA than a white. For Hispanics, he said, the ratio is 18 to 1.

http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/story/127090

Botnst · #2 10-01-2008, 01:43 PM

Especially if the applicant is clean and articulate and whose middle name is .... (guess what I was going to write)

BENZ-LGB · #3 10-01-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Especially if the applicant is clean and articulate and whose middle name is .... (guess what I was going to write)

Did Joe Biden really say that about his Boss, Barack Hussein Obama?

Incidentally, the use of quotas to give minorities a break has a far more pernicious effect (at least from my perspective).

I was admitted to several top notch law schools. I was admitted to those schools on the strentgh of my LSAT's, my college grades and the depth and quality of my extra-curricular activities.

Yet, I have always had to fight the attitude that I got in because my status as a Hispanic.

It is a never ending battle. No matter what my achievements might be, there is always that yahoo that likes to believe that my name (not Hussein) got me admitted to law school.

Idolotor · #4 10-01-2008, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Did Joe Biden really say that about his Boss, Barack Hussein Obama?

Incidentally, the use of quotas to give minorities a break has a far more pernicious effect (at least from my perspective).

I was admitted to several top notch law schools. I was admitted to those schools on the strentgh of my LSAT's, my college grades and the depth and quality of my extra-curricular activities.

Yet, I have always had to fight the attitude that I got in because my status as a Hispanic.

It is a never ending battle. No matter what my achievements might be, there is always that yahoo that likes to believe that my name (not Hussein) got me admitted to law school.

Maybe in your case...

But the idea that people are being admitted just on race is a fact. White isn't the right color as far as Affirmative Action is concerned.

Just the term, "affirmative action" is an oxymoron!

Hatterasguy · #5 10-01-2008, 02:38 PM

They may get in, but they don't graduate. The number of minorities that are admited to my school is quite high, but the number that actualy stay 4 years and get a degree is really low.

While it may get you in, if you don't belong you won't stay.

BENZ-LGB · #6 10-01-2008, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idolotor

Maybe in your case...

But the idea that people are being admitted just on race is a fact. White isn't the right color as far as Affirmative Action is concerned.

Just the term, "affirmative action" is an oxymoron!

I personally know many "minorities" whose grades and test scores were high enough to get into school w/o the assistance of affirmative action.

I think that there should be some sort of affirmative action to help disadvantaged kids, regardless of race, get into college. There are a lot of disadvantaged white kids who could use the help.

aklim · #7 10-01-2008, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

Incidentally, the use of quotas to give minorities a break has a far more pernicious effect (at least from my perspective).

I was admitted to several top notch law schools. I was admitted to those schools on the strentgh of my LSAT's, my college grades and the depth and quality of my extra-curricular activities.

No matter what my achievements might be, there is always that yahoo that likes to believe that my name (not Hussein) got me admitted to law school.

Mine too.

But with AA present, all we have is your good word. Therein lies the problem. Most everybody I know will say they got what they got because of their abilities. I don't know anybody that will say that they got where they got because of some handicap. So how will you ever know that race didn't play some small role? I can never be sure that I was hired because of my abilities and not the color of my skin.

The worst part of it is that you cannot prove that you didn't and even if you could, you would still be lumped up with those that did. That is why I believe AA should be scrapped ASAP.

BENZ-LGB · #8 10-01-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

So how will you ever know that race didn't play some small role? I can never be sure that I was hired because of my abilities and not the color of my skin.

In my case job performance is all the proof I (or my bosses) need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

The worst part of it is that you cannot prove that you didn't and even if you could, you would still be lumped up with those that did. That is why I believe AA should be scrapped ASAP.

I know. Fortunately, in my position performance can be quantified.

mpolli · #9 10-01-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BENZ-LGB

the use of quotas to give minorities a break has a far more pernicious effect

Exactly. Doesn't this system basically say to minorities "You are not as smart as white people, so we will hold you to a lower standard." And isn't that the exact opposite message that needs to be communicated? Also there are different implementations of affirmative action. There are quotas but there are also "uneven standards". I think it is fine to have a quota as a goal, and to undertake to achieve that goal through expanded recruitment and ways of helping minorities prepare to succeed. However, if you simply have a lower standard based on race, that is just discrimination, that's all it is. Pure racism. Should be totally completely banned as the racism it is.

aklim · #10 10-01-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpolli

Exactly. Doesn't this system basically say to minorities "You are not as smart as white people, so we will hold you to a lower standard." And isn't that the exact opposite message that needs to be communicated?

And that is just it. How would I know that the person in front of me is really qualified and not shooed in thru the back door at night because he/she isn't as good as a non-minority?

G-Benz · #11 10-01-2008, 04:01 PM

I believe the initial goal of affirmative action was to allow underprivileged, but driven minorities access to higher education that wouldn't traditionally be available if academic performance across racial boundaries were unweighted.

Consider an example case history of a typical suburban white student, who would have access to an exemplarary school system, complete with dedicated instructors, regular test coaching and such, increasing his chances for academic success. This student would be prepared for college with a solid GPA and high SAT or ACT test scores.

Flash over to an extreme case...an underpriviledged minority who, although has the desire to excel (and does), has limited to no access to the types of advantages that allow that student to excel in the admission exams. Couple that with grades, while superior, were attained in classes where the instructors may not have been motivated to do more that herd students in and out of the room, or worse yet, spend so much time with disciplinary issues that the ones who actual turn in work, get high marks.

Nevertheless, someone recognizes that the student aspires to go to college, and recognizes that while falling short of the pedigree that typical college applicants possess, has the determination to succeed...enter AA.

But like every human assistance program (especially welfare), it has its abusers. Many will say that this system was developed shortly after the "Jim Crow" era when it was viable, and those days are long gone. That is probably true. Also consider that the above case is no longer typical of minorities, and many have mainstreamed into suburban America, having access to the same types of advantages for success that white students enjoy.

But yeah, like others posted, my grades and test scores were exemplary, so there was no need to be considered for admission under a quota. Fortunately, my college days are long behind me, so I don't have to defend my college opportunity, or my credentials for admission.

Should AA be removed? Probably. But mostly it should be revised, so that the pendulum doesn't swing too far the other way (as it seems to have done if you are a white candidate)...whereas candidates who fall short of standards (regardless of race) but are willing to succeed are considered on a case-by-case basis.

MTI · #12 10-01-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mpolli

Exactly. Doesn't this system basically say to minorities "You are not as smart as white people, so we will hold you to a lower standard."

Not necessarily, it also says to minorities, including women, that "the system" is attempting to adjust for years of social and educational inequality in a hope to bring diversity to a profession.

aklim · #13 10-01-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Not necessarily, it also says to minorities, including women, that "the system" is attempting to adjust for years of social and educational inequality in a hope to bring diversity to a profession.

I would disagree. Play a game with a pro and there is a handicap that favors the weaker party. This adjustment is a spin for minorities who cannot and/or will not compete.

Idolotor · #14 10-01-2008, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Not necessarily, it also says to minorities, including women, that "the system" is attempting to adjust for years of social and educational inequality in a hope to bring diversity to a profession.

No! In the "fair" service to all people, of all colors, grades must be the standard, not skin color quotas, race quotas, or gender quotas.

To tell someone that they weren't the "right" color or race to get in to law school should be against the law.

All races can be judged equally by grades, because they are "colorblind".

Affirmative Action is an oxymoron.

Emmerich · #15 10-01-2008, 04:07 PM

Oh yeah, I recall this one, isn't it "two wrongs make a right"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTI

Not necessarily, it also says to minorities, including women, that "the system" is attempting to adjust for years of social and educational inequality in a hope to bring diversity to a profession.