Military; he will be appreciate being able to return to school after a hitch.

I'm 25. I just bought my house, I'm going to community college and working full time.

I was a lazy kid when i was in high school. I had one job when i was in school and it was at a packing shed for one season. It wasn't until i started my current job, and got my first pay check that I started to see life a little differently.

When I graduated from high school my dad wanted me to go to college. so started community college. my mom (who has been divorced from my dad since I was 13) introduced me to an engineer looking for a drafter. That is my job to this day.

My dad told me to go to Davis and become an engineer and kicked me out. NO money I went to live with my mom and start the job she hooked me up with. I lived there for a year then moved out with one of my friends in the area who was living off his parents. I went to work every day to pay rent, and he stayed at home and made dirty dishes. seeing this made me even less lazy.

I've had a lot of friend who's parents have helped them out monetarily. and most of them are still living of their parents... at 25!

One of my friends has grown up... after he got a girl pregnant married her, and is now taking life seriously. I have another friend who never had a dad and who's mom is broker then I am. He is doing well also.

In my opinion, if you have the ability to get his foot in the door at a business, DO IT. and then give him no more help. He will learn where the money comes from, and learn to respect the system. if you have money for his college, keep it. and tell him he can only have it after he gets an associates degree, or when he wants to buy a house.

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Lets not forget..He's 20...certainly not an adult yet.....
Be his friend...give him some direction to try to shoot for....I know many that ran right off into under grad spent all this money and now are pigeon holed into a lifeless occupation.

I am not saying to encourage his inactivity..but give him a couple of years....
At least he may find a track AND not be in debt for obscene monies....

Wait...wait till some girl catches his eye and he realized he needs the bread to court her, take her out....you will be AMAZED at his resourcefulness...

He needs your support and TOUGH love with a "good" kid will drive a wedge between you especially if he doesn't feel you are on his side....

Don't let him become another lifeless accountant, lawyer or doctor to appease you and make YOU feel better....people, HE's 20 !!!!!!!!!......
As long as he respects YOUR home...YOUR rules....than be his friend....

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Showing up every day isn't enough. There are a lot of guys who show up every day who shouldn't have showed up at all. - James Caan

Thanks all for the great advice. I especially like the perspective from our younger members who have 'been there' recently.

He tells me his classes are going well and he has a good plan for next semester. I asked for very specific details about his attendance and grades, as well as a timeline for what he hopes to achieve in the next year. Also that I expect him to live up to his promise. I told him I will cover his rent (which we pay directly to the landlord), but his living expenses will now be his own responsibility.

I'm making the transition from 'parent' to 'friend' in that I realize I have very little direct control over his life anymore except for finances, and I don't want to make it all about money.

We'll see what he comes up with.

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1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

I have not read any other responses, but I will tell you, speaking from my experience with my son, the crash and burn part is the best route to take.

Nothing has motivated my son more than having to pay for his groceries, utilities, ec...... on his own.

He was headed down the wrong path and almost a year ago, he moved out to central florida, got away from his friends, who were all in the same boat, and started to grow up.

He was a lazy, unmotivated pothead at this point last year. Now he is going to school, paying his bills, cooking, and living on his own. He has a fulltime job in a medical equioment company, making pretty decent cash for a 19 year old, and will be moving into marketing soon.

He is a pleasure to speak with now, and in no way resembles the dickhead he was before.

.02

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Enough about me, how are you doing?

It sounds like you're on the right path, and maybe he's starting to see it himself.

I went through a similar thing myself through my college years. I started screwing around, my grades hit the bottom and my father cut me loose, I had to sink or swim. And sinking sucked.

I generally don't buy into philosophical mumbo-jumbo, or mind fawks as Aklim likes to call them . But I attended a owner's forum meeting and we had a speaker on the dealing with Gen-X (of which I'm an elder member) and Gen-Y employees and customers and really laid out the reasons for their different way of looking at things due to their growing up in an instant gratification (not just pleasure, everything-news, info, entertainment, purchasing, etc.) society. There were a lot of moments in that room of primarily Boomer generation members.

OTOH let me give you the extreme opposite, definitely the "enabling" side. I offer up one of my employee's family. Two sons (one mid-30's, one mid-20's) and a daughter (early-20's). Employee scraped up enough money to buy a 2 family house on a nice big lot with eldest son. Son #1's wife has a kid, then get divorced 2 yrs. later, stopped paying bills, employee's wife picked up the tab. Son #2 lost his job (after 2nd DUI lost his license, couldn't drive), couldn't make his new truck payments so employee's wife picked up the tab, Son #2 moves in with Son #1 and still owns brand new truck that he can't drive. Employee's DD gets knocked up by her BF, needs to finish school and work and raise a kid so they all move in on employee's side of the house. His wife pays their bills, too. Employee does all of the yardwork and house repairs, usually without help.

Meanwhile my employees busts his @$$ selling firewood in his off hours just so he has some extra money and can pay the bills that are in his name and has to rely on paid partnerships for felling, cutting, splitting and delivery since his kids are always so busy. Of course the house has been refinanced, the equity drained all while son #1 still claims 1/2 the property taxes on his tax return. I don't think this story is going to have a nice ending and it hasn't been finished yet.

It takes some of us a while but most of us come after we learn it ourselves. OTOH if you keep enabling them you may have them around for a LOT longer, and far more intimately, than you'd like.

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1980 300TD-China Blue/Blue MBTex-2nd Owner, 107K (Alt Blau) OBK #15
'06 Chevy Tahoe Z71 (for the wife & 4 kids, current mule) '03 Honda Odyssey (son #1's ride, reluctantly) '99 GMC Suburban (255K+ miles, semi-retired mule) 21' SeaRay Seville (summer escape pod)

Either he is an adult or he isn't. If he is, he has certain things to go by. If not, that is a different story. IIRC, 18 is the age most states consider you an adult.

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01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

The hard facts in life is this. It IS about money. It is about whether you are going to flush it down the toilet or not. He wanted his independence, he got it. However the price if independence is that he has to make his own way and NOT via your wallet. If I want the money my boss has, I have to do something for it. There is that acronym NILIF. Nothing In Life Is Free.

In any case, by bailing him out, you are not doing him any favors. In fact, you are doing him a disservice by not making him responsible for his decisions.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I have often disagreed with you but have to tell you that you are right on with this.

Everytime I bailed my son out of a jam, he took it for granted, making the next time even more costly, as he thought I had a direct line to the US engraving bureau. He appreciates everything more now.

If you want to see threads about kids getting focked up, look up engatwork under the member list and see all the crap he's gone thru with his kid. His wife was the enabler and the kid really gave him fits.

I hope he's doing well now, for Jim's sake. FYI, he was the former moderator of OD(one of them) and a valued member of our little community.

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Enough about me, how are you doing?

not if knows of no other way than sucking on the teet..

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Showing up every day isn't enough. There are a lot of guys who show up every day who shouldn't have showed up at all. - James Caan

So show him another way. Take away the teet.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

But you're missing the point.

He's an adult male. He had the responsibility to pay back his friends, not you.

You had no legal, moral, or ethical responsibility to bail him out.

He needed to face the consequences, but he didn't.

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Paul S.

2001 E430, Bourdeaux Red, Oyster interior.
79,200 miles.

1973 280SE 4.5, 170,000 miles. 568 Signal Red, Black MB Tex. "The Red Baron".

my 2c


1st ~~~ BRING HIM HOME ~~~ take him out of vacation land and the california lifestyle, what kid would not want to live there with free room and board ~~~ use financial reasons for this move

2nd ~~~ THE TALK ~~~ give him a week or so to settle in, and for you to observe his behavior ~~~ then explain the RULES of living under my roof and his future plans in a man-to-man manner, trying to deal with him as an adult and friend ~~~ also try to establish a deadline for SOMETHING to happen ~~~ also try flipping him a few bucks(bribes do work in some cases) during this period erratically, always helps to have a few bucks in your pocket to build the confidence level which also allows you to see how he manages money (alot cheaper than college bills)

3rd ~~~ THE SEARCH ~~~ see what's available in your area voc., jr college, apprentice programs, or a job, etc. ~~~ then try and work together on this to see what peaks his interest ~~~ once an interest is found, network it to try and get him in the door, to the point of even working for free for a couple of weeks, and see where it goes ~~~ if that interest doesn't work go on to the next interest ~~~ it's tough to pick out a career path at that age, but finding a job that makes you want to get out of bed and just can't wait to get there, is what you're looking for

AND NOBODY SAID IT IS EASY

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1989 300ce smoke silver / brazil, in a constant state of flux ~~~

kick his sh$t to the curb, let him know there is no more. I've been on my own since 17. You are man enough to stand up then keep walking. When he gets sick and tired of being sick and tired and tired of being sick he may get his sh$t together. Then again he may not. It takes awhile to turn around, but he could do it if there was no more.

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If it ain't broke take it apart and find out why.

1983 300SD, 4 speed
1994 C280
1987 300TD wagon
1996 HD Road King

Ride in Peace Eric Peterson, Harley of Macon

I will try to simplify what I have experienced with my children and other people over a lifetime. .

You cannot make someone else fulfill your visions. Or implant your visions in their mind. Or have whatever your standards are. That they have to develop or not develop them on their own. .You can reasonably modify or add to their visions perhaps. Just impossible to initiate them in my opinion. They simply put are not you.

If I find they have no solid visions I immediatly suspect a problem lurks. From something like a moderatly chronic depressed state to some issue that they are using as a crutch they will not discard.

A person has to be responsible for themselves. You cannot assume responsible for them once they have decided they are grown up. There is no other way. I suspect it is one of the ways character is developed. . Or shows character.

Another point that is hard to absorb is you really are not helping a person that is not trying to help themselves. You are just delaying whatever the inevitable is. Good or bad. In fact you might be contributing to the damage. Harsh but reality in my opinion and unfortunatly experience.

Now there is a large genetic component as well as many other factors that influence things to a great degree. So without even meeting your son and yourself I cannot quote anything other what I have kind of learned as almost absolutes in my 66 years.

The dynamics present in a family are very important as well. Everyone is an individual but they must mesh well in at least some areas to reach understandings. Otherwise you develop a chronic basically standoff situation. Very hard to get out of if at all after it is established. This sounds like your present situation. Nothing productive happens in this state. In fact perhaps it is the laying of the groundwork for a very bad future relationship.. .

In fact the probable only course at that point might be proffessional intervention. It may not work either but not availing yourselves of it is not smart. That way the problem is at least brought to the surface. Sometimes all the issues come boiling out with a stranger. Sometimes just getting the air cleared helps. Or at the least the problem is properly defined.

The proffesional becomes the sounding board for both of you. A good proffesional makes practical suggestions that can help. The issue between yourself and your son is serious enough already that you have posted it on a discussion forum.

The lessons I learnt along the road were not easy to absorb. It took time before they formatted themselves. Right or wrong I have more or less applied them over the years.

Now my lmited qualifications are the raising with my wife of four girls. They all seem to have done well. Are reasonably happy, emotionally well adjusted, highly functional and very skilled. The second oldest one came forward and thanked me when she was about thirty five.

She said she thought I might have been a little hard when she was young but in retrospect I was totally right. I tried to explain her mother did the bulk of the upbringing. She corrected me and said I was the dynamic force in their conditioning to meet the world head on.

It was what made the difference between women of little power and what the four of them achieved. They had developed a concencious on that amoungst themselves over time according to her.

Funny even at this late day I feel my responsibility is to make sure all family members mesh well or try to enable it. We could be described as a tight family I imagine. Frequent informally meetings or get togethers are held. Everyone is kept up to date over what is currently happening that way. Certainly issues still arise. The communication is so good and straightforward any issues that arrise are quickly put to rest. So there is no friction or uncomforatable zone for anyone.

My point is it could have all turned out very differently if I had not been fortunate enough to do certain things at certain times. Somehow or other make the right decisions at the right time. Not perhaps the easiest thing to do. I today fully recognize I struggled with many of them at those times a decision was required.

The old adage you can learn well when under pressure to preform may be true. Those daughters all have good intellect and were always a challenge. Remember in our household domain I was vastly outnumbered and tested on almost a continuious basis.

It is fair to state they seldom missed an opportunity. At least since we were all blessed with a good sense of humour we got through it. The discusions where always continuious. Especially over the dinner table. The constructed traps many. In many ways the advanced learning was a game format. Once you got them going it took on a life of it's own.