Finally, a post with some sense.

How's those assault rifles going to fare against a mortar shell and a tank?

When the government comes to get you.........NONE of your guns are going do anything but delay the inevitable.

Everything else is just BS.

The Constitutional amendment guaranteeing our right to keep and bear arms always realised that you were going to have some weapons the other side wouldn't. The idea was that your government would not be able to run over you without heavy resistance! You had the ability to fight and die for your rights and the second amendment guaranteed you a position of pushing back if your were walked on! That was what was meant by "though shall not tread upon me"! It is the delay and threat of a citizens resistance that tells your governemt your not going into the night without a fight!

Nuclear weapons, well if those go off we are all done! An aqrmed citizenry could even force a government to reconsider setting off nuclear weapons resulting in our ultimate destruction. Our second amendment rights gave us the right to defend ourselves and a voice our government could not take away even if we were outgunned!

Lopok at Africa. At one time all the citizens of Botswana carried a rifle. It was understood that everyone had a rifle to hunt with, protect themselves and the means to fight back any hostile enemy. Once a totalrian government came in and forcibly removed the farmers right to own rifles, these people were slaughtered because they had no means to fight back and protect themselves and now anyone with a slight clue can see the results!

If guns are outlawed, only the outlaws will have guns. I'm proud to be in the latter category if you force me into it!

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Really? Selfe defense like the situations I mentioned above is just BS? Man are you out to lunch!

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It depends, doesn't it? One wouldn't think that the death of a common man would not be be so uncommon as to undo a government. But the history of mankind has lots of cases in which a tyranny's downfall began with some singular event. Perhaps the loss of a life.

So for example, when the government over-reached and murdered all those wackoes in Waco and that family of racists in Montana or Idaho, it motivated a hell of a lot of people around the country to question WTF the government was up to. Those events still have their echoes in law enforcement and in the consciousness of a lot of citizens.

So yeah, taking your gun against the seemingly impossible odds of a nearly omnipotent, tyrannical government may appear to be a waste of time and a life. But in the long run, who knows.

However, armed resistance isn't usually necessary and isn't usually the best course. But sometimes it is. Nice to have the tools that allow a free citizen to make an individual choice on that matter. Like Patrick Henry said. Many people still believe those old fashioned notions of liberty.

B

A thoughtful response and probably accurate.

Unfortunately, the downside to allowing every man to own a 50 caliber machine gun offsets the "nice to have the tools........." part of the above.

In the current society, it's simply impossible to outgun the government........might as well admit that fact and move on.

Your alternative is to allow the citizens to match weapons with the government. We're so far from that point........even today.......that the discussion is really moot.

I'm not the advocate of arming the citizens equal to the army, though I understand it and believe it is a valid point even it doesn't carry the argument. I agree with MTI's contention that no rights are absolute. Only an absolutist thinks in those terms and I have no special use for absolutists of any sort. They too easily make useful idiots for cynical leaders.

It isn't necessary to outgun the government. I doubt that any revolution was begun by people who outgunned the government they sought to overthrow, though I could be wrong.

What's necessary is that good men do something. There's no a guarantee of success. Most revolutions fail. At least the first time.

We know the results if good men do nothing.

B

So, the question that begs an answer is where do you draw the line? If it's not necessary to outgun the government, and in consideration of the current "civilized" society, what weapons are permissible and what are not permissible?

My personal opinion is that weapons needed for self-defense or for sport should be permissible.......weapons utilized for outgunning a typical police force are not.

Fair enough. What weapons do you think I can own short of a cruise missile that will outgun a typical police force on a one to one basis? My AK-47? My 12 gauge? Unless you are talking DU rounds, it is hard to imagine many weapons that are going to outgun the local police force seeing as how they have fully automatic assault rifles, shotguns, tear gas, etc, etc.

In fact, the M16 Assault rifle, IIRC doesn't even fire fully auto anymore. They have a 3 round burst. Why? Probably because full auto does little

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Like I said, I'm hardly the gun expert. Interpret the statement as you see fit.

What did those two clowns have that held off an entire police force for nearly one hour? Their firepower was amazing..........the police were outgunned until the full swat team arrived.

As an individual or as a collective group? No matter what I own, I can't win against the govt going toe to toe. OTOH, if a great many citizens are armed, it makes the govt think about it if they want to do something "exotic".

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A great many citizens are armed. The question is with what? Do you really thing the government is going to do something "exotic"?

I don't.

And, if you do.........why don't you have a Federal License for a machine gun........and enough ammo to take out a small city?

I hear a lot of BS.........who's really got the firepower to back up their "second amendment" rights?

It took an exotic action to take the Branch Dividians out.

That was not an "exotic action" by the definition of the term on here today. I take Lim to mean an action by the government that is outside the rule of law.

The government came to arrest a specific individual. He resisted arrest. It went downhill from there..........hardly exotic.

Bingo. An individual or a few of them against an entire govt is not what the 2nd is about. A population properly armed will not have to put down govt. Tyranny and despotism will never even germinate if the ability to destroy it is present. I dare say, we might not have seen WWI or WWII if righteous individuals properly armed, unified and organized had been there to prevent govt run amok. How many hundreds of thousands-millions of lives could have been saved by a nation of well armed yet good natured people?...

To the Obama gun ban movement, his website had a list of measures to ban firearms and confiscatorily tax ammunition. Among them was to reinstate the Clinton gun ban as well as a further move to stop the production of semi automatic arms. There are more and they are sweeping. I'd post a link, to his website, but the information has been taken down. I doubt that means they intend to scrap the effort.