Consider yourself lucky that you were dealing with the young gal and weren't in one of the six facade programs that this old guy is currently administering. We don't allow any replacements unless the existing are so far gone that rehabilitation is impossible, and then we typically replace only the sash, with replica sash (single glazed) from one of our local window shops.

I fully realize that we live in a plastic, throw away society but that doesn't mean that I have to follow suit. Vinyl windows, for the most part, have a design life of 12-15 years and the Lifetime warranties they come with aren't worth the paper they are written on.

I recently had to replace 38 ten year old junk vinyl windows that had been installed in one of my rental buildings just prior to my buying the building. I told the seller at the closing that I would have paid 20K more for the building if he had not done the "window replacement" that he touted as a major selling point. Fortunately he didn't damage the original jambs and sills beyond repair and I was able to make the repairs and have replica sash made. With the installation of decent quality storm/screens the fenestration now looks as it should, and is now more energy efficient than the vinyl crap we took out.

A large part of my business is administering housing rehabilitation programs. We oversee rehab of 150+ single family homes a year and find that we are having to replace more and more vinyl windows that are only 10-15 years old.

One last point; unless older wood windows are literally falling apart, replacing them has the poorest ROI of almost any energy conservation measure.

Jim

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2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

For us, replacing old wood windows with vinyl, was a no-brainer - and energy conservation was just a minor selling point. Did ours about 8 years ago, and I'd do it again in a second.

In addition to saving $30-50/month on heating and A/C, we gained two benefits that were worth the change, even were there no monthly savings.

Our home is now quiet - we can't hear a thing from the outside world. No more road noise, and the screaming rugrats that fill our family friendly neighborhood, no longer make me think of solutions I can't discuss here.

Second - they function just like the day they were installed. They are near impervious to heat/cold/humidity, and just plain work.

I don't doubt for a second, the experiences you've mentioned. But, there are tons of manufacturers, tons of installers, and geographic and weather concerns that don't apply to everyone. "All vinyl is bad", is simply too general a statement.

When you compare the cost saving in utility bills between unrepaired wood windows with no storms and new vinyl windows that is not the same as comparing it to refurbished wood windows with properly installed storm windows.

That would be the fair comparison but there is no practical way to do it.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Single hung windows suck IMHO. The house I have that were trying to sell has a set of original 1927 single hung, with a nice storm window setup put on probably 15 years ago. They are lose as can be, you can actualy rattle them when they are latched, weather stripping? Whats that. Sure they lasted 90 years but they are lose as can be and leak a lot of heat. Plus you have to strip and repaint them, I don't want to do that or pay for it.

If I was keeping it I would replace them with some vinyle double hungs.

If you want a good wood window and don't mind spending some money, Marvin's are pretty nice:
http://www.marvin.com/?page=double_hung

Thats like something we would use if we were building a million and a half dollar house.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

And, why would that be?

How many folks actually use the upper sash?

I ment single pane; I actualy like single hung with half screens I think the bottoms open better, and they are tighter.

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2016 Corvette Stingray 2LT
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

What is the comparison with wood windows and storms versus a decent new window.......say Anderson double hung.......with regard to energy efficiency?

I'd presume that the storm does the majority of the work with regard to limiting airflow and the three inch space between the two windows is superior to the 1/2" space on the double glazed Andersens.

Be interesting to see a side by side comparison, although it's difficult due to the lack of any data on the wood window/storm window combo.

I say that ANY double glazed modern window is superior in every possible way to an old single pane with triple tracks. There is no way the 3" airspace is better than the 1/2" in the double glazed. Two reasons: The storms/triple tracks are not completely sealed at their perimeter, they have moisture drains, etc. The single pane double hungs also do not have particularly good sash seals, etc. so drafts are common complaints. When you do tighten up old windows they then are usually too tight to operate if the wood swells a bit. So in winter they are loose in the dry air and summer they swell and don't open or close. A modern double glazed window is completely sealed with either a vacuum or an inert gas between the panels. I have toured a Guardian Glass plant and seen them being made. Its really pretty impressive. Well all know how well a vacuum thermos works, its the same principle. The modern materials in the seals on the sashes is also light years ahead of any old window.

I've installed more new windows than I care to mention. In each and every case the result is less drafts, better insulation, less noise, etc. all leading to more comfort. Unless you are restricted by the local hysterical (historical) nazis you would be insane not to upgrade if possible.

Never done a Pella but haven't heard any negative things about them around here yet. Time will tell though if they have cheapened the product.

RT

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When all else fails, vote from the rooftops!
84' Mercedes Benz 300D Anthracite/black, 171K
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Infiltration is the primary energy loss with double hung windows, it is the nature of the beast. I have seen blower door tests performed on housing units with both new insert vinyl windows, and rehabilitated weather-stripped 100 year old double hung windows, with equal results. Add a decent quality storm and the old window becomes more energy efficient.

When performing energy audits we find the ROI (return on investment) in energy savings when replacing even poor wood double hung windows with vinyl replacements stretches out to years, very often beyond the design life of the replacement units.

Jim

__________________
2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

Well, I have not done any infiltration tests. In my experience though, the wood window with a good storm will not match the new quality window on infiltration. In my personal experience though, the windows on my old home and on my old office building were huge by modern standards. over three feet wide and over seven feet tall. Most window manufacturers will not even make a dh window that big and any other style even less so.

The cost of a new quality custom made window that big is just staggering, and you have to get very very precise measurements because ordering the wrong size is a big big hassle.

If you assume that the windows in an old structure are all the same size you will meet with disaster as in many cases they made the opening and then made the windows to fit. They look like the same size but don't try to swap sashes from one to another.

And while the old window properly refurbished and equipped with a good storm may not match a new window for thermal performance, they are pretty good, and that is only one part of the equation in making a selection. Longivity and historical correctness is also a factor. Historic houses that were scorned thirty or forty years ago are now prized.

You really have to look at everything to make an informed decision.

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

Agreed, but the key is in the weather-stripping of the historic sash, they can be made as tight as a new unit, inch for inch. However, as you have pointed out, the size (lineal feet @ perimeter of sash) will make a difference.

Just makes me crazy to see these wonderful old buildings "plasticized", completely destroying the architectural integrity for limited, short term benefit.

Jim

__________________
2005 C240 4matic wagon (daily driver)
87 190D - 225K (on loan)
85 190D - 312K (on loan)
2011 Subaru Legacy AWD (Wife's)

The wood dh in my old house have a very sophisticated system of copper and galvanized weatherstripping and interlocking devices to stop air infiltration, much more comprehensive than the new plastic thingies which will break off in ten years or so.

I really detest it too...especially when folks plop a new smaller window in an opening and build down to it....ugh!

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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

For whats its worth:

Our kitchen window in insulated glass, spring balance wood with felt weatherstripping. Not a great window but ok. One night I went around the house with an instant read thermometer and check windows at the meeting rail joint (window locked) The kitchen window showed x deg.

Original 1885 Living room window, wood single pane counterweighted, no weatherstripping, locked, at meeting rail crack showed x-20 deg.

Original 1885 Dining room window, same as living room but with original wood storm showed x-10 deg.

Weather stripped the wood windows and the storms. Redid my test at the meeting rails. The kitchen showed Y, the living room Y-10, and the dining room Y. I was kinda surprised that the window/storm combination was the same as the 'new' kitchen window.

Weather stripping supplies were about $250, and the labor to install on 14 windows and two door was about $2800. For an uninsulated house you have to start somewhere. The next step is the sill plate at the stone foundation and the wood hatchway basement entry....

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95 E300D gave away
77 300D, 227k, station car
83 300CD 370k, body gone away to the rust gods, engine is in a Yota pickup, going strong
89 190E 2.6- 335k, no more
79 VW FI Bus- 154k summer driver
59 VW Beetle ragtop- 175k
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