Originally Posted by Botnst

I don't do appeasement.

Originally Posted by AustinsCE

While I agree it's a personal rights issue, and all that, and I don't think the government should regulate on the matter etc, etc...

Tests to prove which of the 4'000 chemicals in cigarettes causes harm, and proving that they indeed came from cigarettes, directly or second hand, is impossible. Many of those chemicals, as many as 100, are already "known" to cause cancer. It is equally impossible to convince me that they aren't dangerous, even second hand, as this country moves towards a 50% chance of everyone getting cancer, males already at that point.

Originally Posted by LaRondo

I was just kidding. But seriously, what is it then you are doing?

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

I think this is way over-simplified.
I might agree that dissent does not equal UN-patriotic, but to say that dissent=patriotic is foolish. What happens when your political party is in the majority? Does dissent still= patriotic?, or does the new party in power stifle all dissent?
I see that Speaker Pelossi, is considering removing all the Gingrich reforms that insured the minority party a voice. She is considering rather draconian measures that would basically silence non-Democrats. Is that your idea of patriotism?
As far as "Good enough being the enemy of the Better, or even the BEST". There is a lot of truth in that. However, politics is all about what is "doable" at any point in time. If you hold out for the Best, you may not ever get anything accomplished, and then you are mired in the "Bad" that is today.I think the Left in this country( as well as around the world), has done a remarkable job in the creeping incrementalism that seems to be their stategy. Fifty years ago who, in this country, would have ever imagined the way that government controls so much more of the lives of the average citizen? Take something as simple as smoking, for example. A generation ago, the average person would have thought, "Its my decision", and " If I choose to work in a smoky place, again, that is MY decision, I am responsible for my decisions..." Now, the first reaction of offended people is to demand that the government "fix" it. As a result, government grows, and individual responsibility shrinks.The Left has accomplihed this cultural transformation thru the mechanism of taking what they could get at every opportunity, and taking a little more in a few more years.Remarkable; however, depressing as I see the country changed from the intent of the Founders.

Originally Posted by RichC

“The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions, that I wish it to be always kept alive. It will often be exercised when wrong, but better so than not to be exercised at all. I like a little rebellion now and then.” --Thomas Jefferson

You seem to be dissenting with my ideas.
You are giving me the lable " leftist ", and disagreeing with anyting you think is " left "
One political party is not always right while the other is wrong, that is statistically impossible.

Here in my town it was people you would consider " right wing " that spearheaded the
anti public smoking campaigns. ( ie, church, business )

Years ago I chose not to smoke around people that did not care for it.
I dont even smoke in my own house because of the smell.

Think about the two quotes I offered earlier for a while.
Take them out to their ultimate ends.
I think that you will find they are not as limited as you now believe.
Nor is either one rooted in any political leaning.

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Perhaps I am a bit clumbsy in expressing myself.

My basic thought was to encourage everyone to continue in the spirit of patriotic dissent. Always be suspicious of the government. Never rest simply becasue "your" party is in power.
A valuable lesson was displayed in our recent past. The people elected a nominal republican/ quasi-conservative and his party to majority power. The party refused to buck their President when he spent wildly. The President refused to buck the party when THEY spent wildly.
Hold people accountable, and those elected officials in your own party even more accountable.

Originally Posted by LaRondo

Wow, that's another funky idea. Where did you get that one from?
However, I find it remarkable to see for how many reasons the outside world decides to hate us.

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Yes, there are harmful chemicas in cigarette smoke.
How much of that remains in second-hand smoke?
What is the dose delivered by second-hand smoke?
The difference in what gets delivered directly to the lungs of a smoker, and then what he filters out before he exhales, and it get further diluted in the room air all make me think that the harm in second-hand smoke is orders of magnatude less than that delivered to the smoker.

I don't like second-hand smoke; it irritates my nose, and m,akes me sneeze. That does not equate to causing me health harm.
I just want to know if there are legitimate studies that have passed peer review that indicate health risks from second-hand smoke.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Yup, I used to work in a smoky office where most of my displeasure with smokers comes from. We had indoor air purifiers (those ionizing ones) and every 2 weeks or so they'd need cleaning because they were covered with a gray-yellow, ashy, dried-pus-like substance that smelled like crap.

Originally Posted by raymr

I can pull stuff out of my b**t, just like you can, LOL. Realistically though, ideas, become plans, become action. You need to start with good ideas to harvest good results. What you present here is a very, very, very bad idea, and shouldn't even be contemplated.

Originally Posted by Botnst

Like a moth drawn to flame,
I respond to the inane.