The thing is, you look at imperfections and minor flaws and see them as total failures. Say if 20% of the money is used for other things. You'd say it's proof that govt doesn't work. I'd say it needs improvement, but it's mostly working.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

OK, why don't you tell me what you see the trillion dollar debt as? A small "oops"? You told me you are going to use my tax dollars to sue to tobacco companies to pay for the health of the people they ruined. That money has been used for everything but that. In my mind, it is an issue of trust. Every time you ask me for money, you skim 20% of the take. How do you expect me to trust you? Further to that, your results are at best mixed. Like I have asked you before, would YOU let someone of their caliber manage YOUR nest egg? That is why I say that they are already involved in more than they can handle. Why involve them any more? Leave them alone.Even at 20% it is no small figure.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Actually the debt is more like 10 trillion, and yes that one is a large problem, but whose fault is that? Trust me, it's not just the govt's fault. People want to have services and pay little or no tax and most of them won't vote for any politician who asks for short term pain for long term gain. And regarding the hypothetical 20% figure, yes it's not a small figure and it should be lower, but it's very short-sighted to say that because the govt isn't perfect we shouldn't let it do anything beyond what they already do regardless of how critical it is. You may not like the govt but you might as well admit you need it because you do.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

1 trillion, 10 trillion, it's only money, right?

No question about it. The people do have a role it it. The problem is that it becomes a game of "One Upsmanship". You promise them an apple pie? I'll make it 2 pies. Joe sees us and he makes it 3 pies that he will give.

I'm not talking about perfection. Nobody and nothing in this life is perfect. I have to accept that. I just don't consider this situation acceptable. I look at it this way. Lets say we are partners in something very lucrative to me and your brother works for me in another one of my companies and firing him is going to strain our relationship. Well, I have no choice but to keep him. Yes, I know he is skimming from the till. I'm between a rock and a hard place. So, what can I do? Best thing is to keep him on there so as not to rock the boat we both are on. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that I should increase him from 2 days a week to 5 or give him anything else to do where he can skim money.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

No matter how bad it gets here, if the rest of the world is worse, they will buy our T-Bills.

I think at this time, the rest of the world isn't doing all that well.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

China's economy is still doing significantly better. Unlike that of the US it's still growing, but it too has slowed down. Now the Chinese are considering to do their own stimulus package and may not be that interested anymore in buying more US debt. If that happens expect even more trouble for the US economy, most likely in the form of significant inflation combined with continued high unemployment.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Maybe.

Of course, if Chinese exports to the plaent decline as a result of recession, then China will have to figure-out how to pay for all of the construction and social programs it has recently expanded. And continue it's military expansion and modernization. And it's space program.

It's complicated, isn't it?

Whatever pain the Chinese economy feels, the US will feel twice as much because of our dependence on their money. The Chinese are also to some extent dependent on the US for their exports, but they realize that and they have more leeway in doing something about it, such as no longer buying US debt and instead stimulating their own domestic consumption. This would be major trouble for the US economy.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

True. However, as we have currently seen with the global recession, the US will not go down quietly and disappear. When the US goes down, so do many others and so will they. That is why many countries are trying to stimulate their own economies. How much leeway is debatable. It will cause some damage which is what everyone is trying to minimize.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

It used to be said that when the US sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold. That's still mostly true, but clearly the US influence on the rest of the world, economically, politically and even militarily, is not what it once was and continues to decline, mainly because the rest of the world has been on the rise. Get used to a multi-polar world if you haven't already.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

what happens when the US has a cold eh?


All I know is that a phoenix will rise from the ashes....

IF we can get the economics done, we will have political power. Military power we have. Problem is we don't have the stones to use it.

Our main problem is economic. Problem is that to rise economically, we have to be prepared to make a few sacrifices. That means people will get hurt. As you have already noted about politicians and people, they want a painless solution. If we can get to the point where we decide that we will proceed and those that cannot follow along will get behind and have to fend for themselves, we can get ahead.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

Really? What would it take to make you think we have the stones?

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

Or are we mistaken thinking the military can fix our problems and over use
the military option. More brains less stones.

"If the only tool you have is a hammer, you will see every problem as a nail."
Abraham Maslow

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cult plus time equals religion