The electric cars are coming... with a VENGEANCE! - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

jbach36 · #1 03-11-2009, 12:46 AM

I was watching some clips about the auto show in Detroit. Wow. Many manufacturers are coming out with electric cars. I'm sure they'll have bugs to work out as time goes on, but it's a great way to reduce our need for oil. 40 miles a day with no gas needed for the Chevy Volt, then the small gas motor kicks in to charge the battery for up to another 400 miles if needed.

I can almost see the Middle Easterners crying. (sniff)

Now, I'm adding this in .... I know this is not a perfect system. I know others want us to pedal bicycles. Some think batteries will harm the environment (as if oil doesn't?) Others think the electric will cost too much. We're sending $250 million a day now, overseas for oil. PER DAY!! That's $90 billion per year! Maybe electric cars aren't going to be perfect, but it's a step in the right direction to get away from dwindling oil supplies.

jeff

cmbdiesel · #2 03-11-2009, 12:50 AM

Maybe that's why my electric bill is so high, CT must be charging me road tax on my electric usage.

As for the Chevy Volt, I wouldn't even sit in an electric car made by GM, be afraid of getting zapped.

#3 03-11-2009, 01:02 AM

Electric cars are a farce.

The electric grid can't even keep up with people using their A/C in the summer (remember rolling blackouts?). How do you think it will keep up with millions of people plugging in their 50+ kWh car batteries every day?

Ever think about all the emissions and resources consumed making all those batteries? Thats why a normal SUV is cleaner to the environment than electric/hybrid cars.
How about the expense disposing/recycling of those toxic batteries?
How about the danger of working with the 200+ volt battery system?

pawoSD · #4 03-11-2009, 01:07 AM

You say an SUV is cleaner.....but think of the constant process of drilling/storing/shipping/refining/then shipping again all of the fuel that SUV will use....that's a lot of pollution and energy wasted.

BodhiBenz1987 · #5 03-11-2009, 01:07 AM

I'm intrigued by electric cars, but I want to know one thing no one has ever told me. How does the energy it takes to move one 40 miles compare to the energy it takes to move, say, a Ford Focus 40 miles? I know you don't put fuel in the tank, but you use some sort of fuel (or other energy) indirectly when you charge it. The juice that comes out of an electrical socket isn't free or magical. So how does it compare? I honestly have no idea, but it's puzzling to me that automakers, writers and environmental advocates refer to them as though they use zero energy to drive. They don't. I'd be interested to know how the lump sum energy usage compares to a internal-combustion powered vehicle. Does it come out ahead in the overall energy-usage department, and if so, how much?

#6 03-11-2009, 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

The juice that comes out of an electrical socket isn't free or magical. So how does it compare?

Its cleaner and cheaper, yes. But the fact is the power grid can't handle the demand without ma$$ive redevelopment.

pawoSD · #7 03-11-2009, 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987

I'm intrigued by electric cars, but I want to know one thing no one has ever told me. How does the energy it takes to move one 40 miles compare to the energy it takes to move, say, a Ford Focus 40 miles? I know you don't put fuel in the tank, but you use some sort of fuel (or other energy) indirectly when you charge it. The juice that comes out of an electrical socket isn't free or magical. So how does it compare? I honestly have no idea, but it's puzzling to me that automakers, writers and environmental advocates refer to them as though they use zero energy to drive. They don't. I'd be interested to know how the lump sum energy usage compares to a internal-combustion powered vehicle. Does it come out ahead in the overall energy-usage department, and if so, how much?

Its far more efficient. An electric car is over 75% (and getting higher every day) efficient when it uses power from its batteries. And to slow down a lot of them can re-capture that energy as well by using the motor as a generator to slow the car (like trains do).....this means there's nearly 0 waste heat. A typical power plant is over 40-50% efficient....and a geothermal/nuclear/hydro/wind/solar plant has no real impact on the environment pollutionwise....so the power from those is very efficient!

Charging the car is about 90% efficient with a little waste heat....

A typical internal combustion engine is like 30% efficient (maybe 35% for a diesel).....and the rest is wasted as heat. Massive waste.

Bottom line: electric cars are WAY more efficient. The energy used to go 40 miles is minimal compared to what a typical car uses. 1 gallon of gasoline converted directly to electricity would be enough power to run an electric car for a couple hundred miles!

Sadly, as forced mentioned above....our prehistoric power grid and electrical production system could never cope with such a demand....it needs to be completely rebuilt and re-designed.

Jeremy5848 · #8 03-11-2009, 01:23 AM

Much of the recharging will be done at night when there is less load on the grid. Nevertheless, a massive shift to electric cars (which I do not see happening overnight) will require a massive investment in electric generation capability.

That said, it will be less expensive in the long run to generate electricity than to import oil, so long as the electricity isn't generated (apologies to my friends in the named states) from coal shipped all the way from Wyoming to Georgia. It would be interesting to determine the environmental effects of all of those diesel railroad engines, not to mention the lives lost in railroad-related accidents every year. (It is said that three 100-car trainloads of coal are burned per day per power plant.) [/rant]

Jeremy

#9 03-11-2009, 01:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

Its far more efficient. An electric car is over 75% (and getting higher every day) efficient ...
this means there's nearly 0 waste heat.

No, that means the electric car has 25% waste heat by itself. Being 100% efficient is impossible.

Quote:

geothermal/nuclear/hydro/wind/solar plant has no real impact on the environment pollutionwise

Key word "pollutionwise". They have a big impact on the environment itself, especially hydro and nuclear. Hydro destroys large amounts of land when the reservoir is created and producing nuclear fuel is dirty and destructive (there is an open-pit uranium mine starting up near me).

Quote:

Charging the car is about 90% efficient with a little waste heat

Not even close. You forget about the large energy losses from the many transformers (Thats why they need coolant), transmission wire resistance (thats why transformers are needed) and the battery electrical-chemical conversion.

pawoSD · #10 03-11-2009, 01:53 AM

I lifted the 90% charging efficiency stat directly from howstuffworks.com....so you'll have to debate it with them.

Hydro might put a lot of land under water, but then an under water ecosystem can start in that area. You could argue that it doesn't so much "destroy" the land as "change" it.

I'm not saying nuclear is clean, but its certainly a lot better than coal....

#11 03-11-2009, 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pawoSD

directly from howstuffworks.com....so you'll have to debate it with them.

They have quite a few inaccuracies since they lift all their information from other internet sources, similar to Wikipedia. Like wiki, their information should be taken with a grain of salt.

Quote:

I'm not saying nuclear is clean, but its certainly a lot better than coal....

No by much considering it needs just as much mining. The improvement comes from how it generates electricity; instead of burning a fuel to boil water its splitting atoms to boil water. Plus, instead of producing airborne emissions and ash it makes highly toxic waste. At least the coal ash has many uses and doesn't need to be buried deep underground to protect people from it.

derburger · #12 03-11-2009, 02:01 AM

I'm patiently waiting for the (micro?)turbine/electric hybrid car to arrive. Except I would probably have to make my own!

compress ignite · #13 03-11-2009, 02:46 AM

The Electrical energy to power "Electric" cars would come from Coal Fired generating plants.
(75% of the power generated in CONUS is Coal Fired)
'Can you say: "Fixed Point (Mobile) Pollution Source"
'Can you say: "Mommie, why is the Sky BLACK?"
(There is no such thing as Clean Coal.
To the current industry...It Costs Them Too Much...
It can be done, BUT it'd gobble up about 50% of their profits.)
[AND you Know all those Coal Fools have a brand spanking new Planet to move to , After they finish laying waste to Planet Earth.]

I want My Diesel/Electric Hybrid,Now! (And ,Yes the "Diesel" can be Turbine JP-8)
Better fuel economy than the best Gas/Electric Hybrids can offer.
So clean burning you can stick your nose in the tailpipe.
Renewable BioDiesel fuel.
[BUT no or little revenue for oil companies]
'Can you say The Valdez is Aground?(economically)

Now that I've "Warmed Up"('Get It? Humor)
RANT scheduled to initiate in 30 seconds...

bgkast · #14 03-11-2009, 04:42 AM

Well an internal combustion engine is what, 30% efficient?

Also most charging will take place at night (off peak)

tombance · #15 03-11-2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Its far more efficient. An electric car is over 75% (and getting higher every day) efficient when it uses power from its batteries. And to slow down a lot of them can re-capture that energy as well by using the motor as a generator to slow the car (like trains do).....this means there's nearly 0 waste heat. A typical power plant is over 40-50% efficient....and a geothermal/nuclear/hydro/wind/solar plant has no real impact on the environment pollutionwise....so the power from those is very efficient!

Charging the car is about 90% efficient with a little waste heat....

A typical internal combustion engine is like 30% efficient (maybe 35% for a diesel).....and the rest is wasted as heat. Massive waste.

Bottom line: electric cars are WAY more efficient. The energy used to go 40 miles is minimal compared to what a typical car uses. 1 gallon of gasoline converted directly to electricity would be enough power to run an electric car for a couple hundred miles!

From your numbers, total efficiency =

0.50 (Power station) * 0.9 (charging batteries) * 0.75 (efficiency of electric car)

Discounting losses in the power distribution system, thats already a total efficiency of 33.75% from fossil fuel to the road, barely any better than a good diesel car, and with many other added expensices and complications.

I read a lot of people on here using the analogy of electric fans vs clutched fans to show how changes in forms of energy always result in losses. Well here is bigger example!