The Gun Thread

Hate to say this but every single person from the military I have known can shoot at least 400 yards. The master seargent I know shoots 500 yards very very well. Again the 5.56 is about being able to get targets outside of "normal" ranges and such. A weapon for a total theater of combat.

[Medmech]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

Oh, and forgive me for asking questions. Kinda thought this might be a good place to learn something. Guess for some it's just a place to vent their pent up aggression.

1. That is BASIC training, basic as in basic Marksmanship most training comes after basic what is why basic is called basic.

2. If you asked questions that would be one thing but you make statements which closes the door. Perhaps the guys at the range that did not join the military because of bad feet or a sick dog will more apt to bs'n wit ya.

Everyone does realize there are different classifications they give everyone in shooting proficiey right?

[JollyRoger]

Originally Posted by Medmech

Because life ends at 200m for the 7.62-39. Plus is well know to be horribally inaccurate.

Heavier rifle required as well.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

the shooter in the Virginia Tech slayings passed an NCICS background check and purchased his guns at a local gun store.

background checks only check for PAST behavior, they cannot predict the future actions of an individual. the system is imperfect and cannot determine future actions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_massacre

the legislators answer to "patching" the "loopholes" is to draft more "legislation" which almost never impacts the criminal use of a firearm. what's the old saying, "When Guns are outlawed only OUTLAWS will have Guns". they write hundreds of pages of new gun laws which tend to impact those who want to obey the law.

had even ONE teacher or student had a loaded gun in their possession that fateful day in Blacksburg, Virginia, how many lives might have been SAVED???

how about placing a loaded .45 in a locked desk drawer of every teacher on campus?

take the teachers to a local shooting range and post the results of their target practice on a bulletin board in the main lobby. the Teacher with the highest score receives a free lunch or dinner. that way, the nut jobs KNOW that they have a very SLIM chance of launching a successful killing spree.

instead the teachers and students are told to "dial 911" and "wait until help arrives". meanwhile, the wacko keeps killing until he runs out of bullets. smart.

There now... quiet down a little hoss. Nobody here is going to hurt you.

My original post that you quoted was opposed to more restrictions on purchasing guns, possibly you missed that.
Putting weapons in drawers in the class room is a foolhardy idea. There are so many reasons not to follow that plan, as to make it impossible to address them all in this venue. Let's just say that nobody wants them there, faculty and students alike.
One of the loopholes that needs to be closed is regarding the interpretation of mentally unfit to possess a firearm. Cho should have fit that description. He was certified (by a judge) to be an imminent danger to himself and others as a result of mental illness. By Federal law, that should have prevented him from purchasing firearms, and it was an error on the part of the State of Virginia to not enforce the requirements of that law.
Thanks for making my point.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by Skippy

5.56 and .223 aren't quite the same thing. You can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber, but it's unsafe to use 5.56 in a .223 chambered weapon. American Rifleman did a writeup of the differences some time in late '07. I may still have that issue laying around.

The 5.56 came about after S.L.A. Marshall studied engagements that happened during the Korean War. He determined that most engagements happened at under 300 yards and that most kills occured at less than 100. The long range and power of the .30-06 in use at the time were clearly not needed most of the time, so Marshall began advocating for development of a smaller lighter cartridge that could be carried in creater quantities. He succeeded in persuading the right people, and eventually we got the M16 in 5.56.

The 7.62x39 came about from some similar observations made by various people on the eastern front in WWII. We weren't about to adopt the other side's cartridge in the middle of the Cold War however. It's interesting to note that in the 70's, some time after the U.S. adoption of the 5.56, the Soviets (against Mr. Kalashnakov's objections) went to a 5.45 mm round for their new and improved version of the AK.

Thanks skippy.

You too medmech, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, but merely to get a better understanding of why we chose the round in question. I have heard the debate bandied about by many, and was hoping to get a solid discourse on the thought that went into the decision.

[DieselAddict]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

There now... quiet down a little hoss. Nobody here is going to hurt you.

My original post that you quoted was opposed to more restrictions on purchasing guns, possibly you missed that.
Putting weapons in drawers in the class room is a foolhardy idea. There are so many reasons not to follow that plan, as to make it impossible to address them all in this venue. Let's just say that nobody wants them there, faculty and students alike.
One of the loopholes that needs to be closed is regarding the interpretation of mentally unfit to possess a firearm. Cho should have fit that description. He was certified (by a judge) to be an imminent danger to himself and others as a result of mental illness. By Federal law, that should have prevented him from purchasing firearms, and it was an error on the part of the State of Virginia to not enforce the requirements of that law.
Thanks for making my point.

Yup, HuskyMan is one of those that the 20/20 episode was intended for. It was to question and debunk the myth that if only everyone had a gun we'd all live in peace and harmony (the episode was called "If Only I Had a Gun"). Not being able to draw your gun in time is only one potential problem. Another is not knowing who the assailant is once everyone starts shooting. Talk about likely collateral damage. And besides these people who commit these crimes are intending to die, and thus a fully armed class would be no deterrent and just a recipe for violent chaos.

[Botnst]

Originally Posted by Medmech

"Military guys" have no problem grouping at 200-600m, practice varies from 25M to 600m. It seems like a guy like yourself in quest of the truth would figure that out. After 200m-300m the 7.62-39 becomes wildly unstable and drops like a rock. In combat its best to have a weapon that is good to cover almost all battle conditions. That is why 5.56 is the preferred round, there is some movement to the 6mm variants but I don’t think we will see that anytime soon.

I assume you have been in house to house combat to choose which round is better, the answer is really niether.

House to house is a max range of what, 15m - 30m? Things happen awful fast at close range. Whatever you have in your hand better be able to get on target and shoot PDQ otherwise one's career is attenuated.

[diametricalbenz]

Originally Posted by cmbdiesel

There now... quiet down a little hoss. Nobody here is going to hurt you.

My original post that you quoted was opposed to more restrictions on purchasing guns, possibly you missed that.
Putting weapons in drawers in the class room is a foolhardy idea. There are so many reasons not to follow that plan, as to make it impossible to address them all in this venue. Let's just say that nobody wants them there, faculty and students alike.
One of the loopholes that needs to be closed is regarding the interpretation of mentally unfit to possess a firearm. Cho should have fit that description. He was certified (by a judge) to be an imminent danger to himself and others as a result of mental illness. By Federal law, that should have prevented him from purchasing firearms, and it was an error on the part of the State of Virginia to not enforce the requirements of that law.
Thanks for making my point.

I heard about this but missed the viewing time but was told the synopsis was that one guy had the gun deployment issue but overall the response time was too slow before being wounded themselves.

Either way, guns, in college or any school means theft and it would be an easy supply of weapons for people who wanted them. An unlocked desk drawer would cause accidental shootings. The hesitance of a teacher to shoot a child one or someone they know.... That would be a.....total misfire....

[HuskyMan]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Yup, HuskyMan is one of those that the 20/20 episode was intended for. It was to question and debunk the myth that if only everyone had a gun we'd all live in peace and harmony (the episode was called "If Only I Had a Gun"). Not being able to draw your gun in time is only one potential problem. Another is not knowing who the assailant is once everyone starts shooting. Talk about likely collateral damage. And besides these people who commit these crimes are intending to die, and thus a fully armed class would be no deterrent and just a recipe for violent chaos.

well.....let's just think this out a bit.....what if a police officer had been present in the classroom at Virginia Tech that day? any chance that he or she may have been able to take out Cho?

[pj67coll]

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Not being able to draw your gun in time is only one potential problem. Another is not knowing who the assailant is once everyone starts shooting.

Are these idiots implying that when someone walks into a classroom and opens fire the folks sitting in that room can't see whose shooting at them?
This is supposed to be "proffessional journalism"?

And besides these people who commit these crimes are intending to die,

Then maybe we should facillitate the process.

and thus a fully armed class would be no deterrent and just a recipe for violent chaos.

BS.

- Peter.

[cmbdiesel]

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

well.....let's just think this out a bit.....what if a police officer had been present in the classroom at Virginia Tech that day? any chance that he or she may have been able to take out Cho?

Now we want guns in the drawers and cops in the classrooms too? Who's picking up the tab for all this? Maybe we can pay for it with tax cuts to the uber-wealthy?
Although some policemen may benefit from more time in the classroom, I don't think armed guards in every room is the answer.
How about if the restrictions put in place by the federal government, regarding the sale of weapons, are enforced? Then, maybe Cho, and all those he killed, might have been able to chime in on the discussion.

[DieselAddict]

Originally Posted by HuskyMan

well.....let's just think this out a bit.....what if a police officer had been present in the classroom at Virginia Tech that day? any chance that he or she may have been able to take out Cho?

Certainly that may have helped, though there are no guarantees. At least a cop is trained for these situations, while the average Joe, even one that regularly goes to a gun range, is not. It takes more than being able to shoot a static target to properly react in these situations.

[DieselAddict]

Originally Posted by pj67coll

Are these idiots implying that when someone walks into a classroom and opens fire the folks sitting in that room can't see whose shooting at them?
This is supposed to be "proffessional journalism"?


Then maybe we should facillitate the process.


BS.

- Peter.

I can tell you haven't seen the show, but at least think about it. What if the door to the classroom is in the back of the class? Even if it's in the front, a lot of people may be looking down taking notes and not see the shooter before it's too late. Or what if the shooter is already in the class and starts shooting from his seat? Then everyone tries to pull out their guns and start shooting at anyone who's shooting too. There's also the issue of "tunnel vision" which happens subconsciously in a stress situation like this and it would most likely contribute to more collateral damage. It appears you didn't think this through and you're just blinded by NRA propaganda.

[JollyRoger]

We need to change our school designs to be more like our jail designs, I suppose.