Originally Posted by cmac2012

Absolutely. But that doesn't absolve us of the inevitable dealing with the debris of our folly.

I mean here we are going to great lengths to urge and make it possible for backward, troublesome nations to be like us. Oops, don't look now but our model is showing some serious flaws.

Originally Posted by cmac2012

You don't begin to get what I'm talking about.

Originally Posted by aklim

What's not to get? Besides your self loathing. It is always our fault. We suck. The rest of the world has it right, we don't. How do you deviate from this?

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Listen closely. No one is perfect. Thinking that you are and that everyone else sucks is just about the most common starting point for error in human history.

I'm thinking that anyone so loathe to realize and admit that we have major room for improvement here, and that it would be we who are responsible for that improvement, that person might just have some closet self-loathing of their own that they're trying to cover for.

Originally Posted by Botnst

The problem is that these modern self-described "liberals" wish to inflict their vision of social improvement on people who don't share their vision. They would do well to look up the word, "liberal" and reflect on how far they have diverged from REAL liberalism.

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Listen closely. No one is perfect. Thinking that you are and that everyone else sucks is just about the most common starting point for error in human history.

I'm thinking that anyone so loathe to realize and admit that we have major room for improvement here, and that it would be we who are responsible for that improvement, that person might just have some closet self-loathing of their own that they're trying to cover for.

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Or how about deeming it fine and dandy that HMO tycoons like Frist and family become filthy rich employing doctors often trained at publicly funded universities and who make a fraction of what the execs make? And further setting such things up so that HMOs become a de facto tool of big corps, Who get a much better deal on care than the individual citizen?

You are not looking at or presenting the full picture. And, one of the big "social improvement" experiments in our nation's history -- the GI Bill -- benefited you, and it sprang from damn liberals, your lengthy rational on why it is perfectly good and proper that it does benefit you notwithstanding.

I could mention that the 40 hour week most all of us think is the way to go might never have come into being without noisy protests by pinko labor unions years back. Damn them and their "inflict(ing) their vision of social improvement" on the rest of us!

Originally Posted by aklim

I never said that, did I? Listen closely. Yes, we are imperfect but we are not scum of the earth, are we? The way you present it gives the impression that we are. Sure, we do things wrong. The reason I say you have your self loathing ways is simply because you seem to direct any and all attention on a fault that many have on us only as though we are the only ones doing it.

There you go again. Sure, we have room for improvement. If you find a place where they don't, why don't you move there? I know I would, assuming they find you desirable enough to allow you in. Yes, we are responsible for our self-improvement. Nobody denies either of those ideas. However, as I said, you seem to portray us as the only ones with a particular fault. Hence the self loathing comment.

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Dude, you're bordering on incoherent. Scum of the earth? I've never come close to that. I say that we shoot ourselves in the foot, over and over and over.

I have no control over that which others do. On a national level, the only govt. I have even the remotest chance of having some influence over is ours. In most all matters, it is way preferable to try to improve oneself than to holler for others to improve, similar on a national level.

From American chest beaters I hear that we're the greatest, that we have in no way ever behaved arrogantly etc. We're just about perfect to hear the rightie bloviators tell it.

Originally Posted by cmac2012

In what way is that different from imposing such things as unprovoked war, open pit mines, SDI, etc. on people who don't share that particular vision?

Or how about deeming it fine and dandy that HMO tycoons like Frist and family become filthy rich employing doctors often trained at publicly funded universities and who make a fraction of what the execs make? And further setting such things up so that HMOs become a de facto tool of big corps, Who get a much better deal on care than the individual citizen?

The actions in Iraq that you champion, to use your words, "inflict their vision of social improvement on people who don't share their vision."

You are not looking at or presenting the full picture. And, one of the big "social improvement" experiments in our nation's history -- the GI Bill -- benefited you, and it sprang from damn liberals, your lengthy rational on why it is perfectly good and proper that it does benefit you notwithstanding.

I could mention that the 40 hour week most all of us think is the way to go might never have come into being without noisy protests by pinko labor unions years back. Damn them and their "inflict(ing) their vision of social improvement" on the rest of us!

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The author makes some good points. It goes along with some of my beefs about our cherished modern culture. Along with the undeniable benefits of some (or much) of our tech, comes a widespread self-delusion that we are above the fray, that our science and tech somehow supersedes the fact that we create dung just like cattle, that we need heat in the winter, and food regularly.

I've worked for quite a few people in the highly educated/affluent range and the way some of these folks race through piles of possessions/resources can be jaw dropping. Oh yeah, it's 'their money.' Doesn't make it prudent.

Along with that, or integral with that perhaps, is an enhanced sense of their/our own personal power, which, IMHO, is vastly inflated.

On the educated classes being less likely to discuss politics, my bro. in law in Idaho has a Mech. Eng. masters (coal fired elec. professional) and MBA and is utterly unavailable for considering opposing points of view. You can see the wheels working in his head when he hears forbidden language on the AGW or gun control issues: he moves infallibly to smirk mode followed by a recitation of talking points, which never vary.

I've told the guy (whom I like in many ways) that his barrage of e-mail forwards begins to sound like heckling/bronx cheering. He forwarded Geo. Wills erroneous article wherein Will stated that U. of Ill. arctic climate/ice researchers said there'd been no decline in ice pack since '79 (maybe '89 I forget now). The U of I people came out afterwards and said, approx: "No way in hell did we say that."

But none of my corrections on these points of fact slow him in the slightest. Which brings me back to my main beef: on the whole, we are arrogant and proud way past rationality in this country.

Originally Posted by tonkovich

1 a: of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts barchaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a: marked by generosity : openhanded b: given or provided in a generous and openhanded way c: ample , full
3obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious
4: not literal or strict : loose
5: broad-minded ; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6 a: of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism bcapitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism ; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives

well, just thought i'd help

Originally Posted by Botnst

A perfect, modern definition.

Now go read about the ideals of the people who originated the political philosophy.

Originally Posted by tonkovich

wow, instructions.

thank you, resident pedant.

(we're not in the classroom anymore)