Unconventional means can be employed in a particular situation, and if necessary, can be used as a defense if charged. But this became a matter of official policy, a very, very different thing.

If it becomes official policy and is vetted by the federal legal system, then it is no longer unconventional....

No. There are lines that must be drawn. There are laws that must be obeyed. If you don't like the laws, get them changed.

By your argument that "a country should use whatever means necessary to protect its borders and its people, and that unconventional measures may be called for" why don't we just nuke Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan? North Korea, also while we're at it. I agree that Islamic Fundamentalism is a threat to the US and it's people. Let's get rid of the problem once and for all. North Korea might sell nukes to these guys... get rid of them, too. Oh... You know China is a real economic threat to our way of life. We owe them lots of money. They're going to increasingly compete with us for resources. And if there weren't all those billions of Chinese, maybe we could put off the day of reckoning on CO2 emissions a little longer as well. We ought to put China on the list as well. I think we've probably got enough nukes to get the whole list accomplished in a matter of a few days. Whaddya think?

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1987 W201 190D

Let me get this straight:
torture is bad, ...except for non US citizens,
is that what you are saying ?

BTW, the Nazis regarded their enemy Jews as 'racial foreign', in other words 'non-citizens' aswell. Perhaps read up sometime on the 'Nuremburg Laws'.

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2011 Prius

I am assuming you meant "is vetted". It wasn't.

For example:That's from a New York Times column by a former "FBI supervisory special agent", whatever that is.

Think of this for a moment...How many American lives were saved because of the alternative interrogation process? How many of YOUR lives were saved with this?

This is a prime example of why the general public doesn't need to know how information is harvested that will save their live...only that it worked.

Most of you can't seem to get your thick skulls around the idea that this happened to save American lives and to protect it's borders.

I don't care one bit what they did to get life saving information, only that they did it and we are safer because of it.

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1987 560SL
85,000 miles

It was overseen by an active appellate court federal judge. It was constantly reviewed by lawyers and policymakers from different branches. Some dissented and the dissent, in some cases, changed the policy.

To go after the federal judge will require impeachment and senate trial. To go after the various lawyers and policymakers will require in camera proceeding since a lot of extremely sensitive, highly classified, ongoing intelligence programs and people will necessarily be discussed.

It would be an interesting circus to watch all of this unfold in a court or in Congress. I'm sure we will all enjoy the spectacle of secret political trails.

It was overseen by an active appellate court federal judge. It was constantly reviewed by lawyers and policymakers from different branches. Some dissented and the dissent, in some cases, changed the policy.

and thus the vetting that JR disputes....

I have no idea whether any lives were saved.OK, so where do we go to find out whether it worked?And you can't seem to comprehend that there are two sides to that issue. I think that the Bush administration's efforts did more harm than good, but I also concede that I don't have nearly enough information or training to make that determination. The best I can hope for is that our government be at least close to honest with us. That didn't happen under Bush.How do you know?

I think you need to be reminded of what 12 individuals were capable of on 9/11. Its a new kind of enemy that will take advantage of our system of checks and balances, just like they took advantage of benign western technology to complete their evil deeds. The gov has to be quick on its feet to counter threats. Waiting for congress to change laws is an open invitation, and could be exploited as a weakness by individuals who have the death of the United States at the top of their priority list.

I don't follow your conclusion. We've had the ability to anihilate the Earth many times over since Russia was a threat. We've resisted bombing Islam to hell in our most trying hour. Cool heads and logic do prevail. I feel our officials need to have limited latitude to act quickly, but then have those actions reviewed at the appropriate time to assess their validity. Thats kinda whats happening now.

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1985 380SE Blue/Blue - 230,000 miles
2012 Subaru Forester 5-speed
2005 Toyota Sienna
2004 Chrysler Sebring convertible
1999 Toyota Tacoma

Take him at his word. That's why he's a law enforcement officer and not a spook. He fundamentally believes that the law enforcement methodology is the best possible system with it's many checks and balances. Of course he will say the info could have been acquired by less coercive methods. I wish to goodness law enforcement people believed as he does.

Spooks see things differently. They are unburdened by rules of evidence since their goal is not prosecution. Their goal is mission-oriented protection of US interests. That is a completely different mission. And that is why I believe that Gorelick's desire to maintain a strong wall between intel & L.E. was a good decision and I hate to see it weakened.

B

What was overseen by an active appellate judge? My memory is not what it used to be.This is a situation where cable TV and the internet really hurt us. I remember watching Geraldo several times a week during the OJ trial. I thought it was fascinating, the way they could pick apart every aspect of the case. What I didn't realize is that I was watching the beginning of the end in terms of quality news reporting. Now the whole process is perverted by sensationalism.

I think the best idea I've heard is to have the administration's lawyers answer to whichever state bars issued their law licenses. If Dybee knowingly wrote a bogus memo in order to provide legal cover for Cheney's henchmen, he should suffer some sort of discipline by his state bar.

First I've heard of that. You got a link?

My conclusion is a perfectly logical extension of your argument that we should do whatever it takes to protect our people and our borders. I'm glad that the people in power have never fully embraced your view, although we've come close in recent years.

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1987 W201 190D