Yes, that's why I didn't originally list it as a problem, but it is still a problem.

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2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

You don't even have to do that.

Guys I know who are former guards told me that the guys who threw feces at the guards, refused to talk, screamed and made wild accusations, etc. were not removed from their cells to enjoy the once a month goat BBQ with the shish kafta and other down-home stuff. They had to eat MREs and a mix of chicken etc.

They couldn't play soccer in the exercise yard and had to watch the other guys.

Some changed after just missing two of the fun meals.

Speaking of which, a couple of those guys would tell you anything if they got a Happy Meal. One guy cried when, as punishment, they took away the toy he had been hiding inside his TP roll. His kid had had one just like it. So they gave it back and he was more cooperative. Some of this stuff is psychological.

When you take the CI/interrogator course, you get taught 28 different approaches. Obviously use what makes sense.

It's kind of like being a mechanic. You can attempt to remove the rusted-on nut with oil, a torch, banging on it, etc.

The carefullly planned and executed strategy gets the nut off without permanent damage, the less carefully executed strategy shears off the nut and makes more work...

Like Peter Drucker, the late management guru, said, " When the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon everyone begins to look like a nail..."

One guy spilled the beans.
Imagine this : "you can't eat the Mc Donalds, it's really pork, not beef!" " "How do YOU know?"
"I have eaten pork, I know what it...ooops....um... er... "

Abu Zubaydah is a different case.

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Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6

It matters if you believe in the rule of law.

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MBlovr
'59 180 Dad's original
'59 180 Dad's 2nd one
'67 250SE Dad's last one
'59 220 SE My first one
'62 220SE Coupe second one
'89 190E 2.6 5spd third one
'06 E350 4matic (sold)
'10 E350 4matic

When the cat is already dead, or rabid, where's the harm?

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M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Now imagine that guy is actually innocent, which at Gitmo is quite probable, and he's been there locked up for years half a world away from his family. Not funny at all. Everyone here should wish for real justice rather than some islamophobic vengeance.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

In the heat of battle, all civility takes a back seat to survival...ask ANY VETERAN that's been in any type of fire-fight...

Now, fresh from the battlefield is Akmed...with an attitude...

Guess who else is going to have the winning attitude and be able to enforce it?

That's the type of scene that was going on early in the campaign...

Now, a few years later, things are a bit more calm...or should be...

Sure, the US had a chip on its shoulder...and the US didn't want anyone exploding bombs around their personnel and related contacts...

Akmed and company couldn't care less...but as their numbers dwindled, they became not so much the problem as more of a nuisance...

So, we feed 'em sugar-free cookies and a few Happy Meals (personally, I'd consider the Happy Meal an insult...) for the sake of information/misinformation...TBD...

Here's the problem we're having now...too many arm-chair critics pretending outrage at what needed to be done at the moment...they didn't want to fight or volunteer to go after the bad guys...but they managed to get themselves in positions of "judgement" of those that had to clean up the messes, go after the perps and related dirty work...

I say let them play their little games but leave it in an "advisory scenario" only...no criminal charges unless there were GRIEVIOUS CRIMINAL ACTIONS on the part of the US or its contractors...and leave it under the military standards and NOT the civilian standards...

These folks weren't swept off the streets after crossing against a red light or were caught J-walking...there are/were legitimate charges/allegations against each one - all occuring during hostilities...not during a drunken brawl. Let the military finish it off and shut it down...but applying civilian standards against military combatants is appeasing Lefties and Socialists and doesn't contribute anything to the good and welfare of the United States...

Instead, it just sets the US up for another USS Cole-like situation...or worse...and we've been there already...

Just hate to see it again...but I'd be dreaming...

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M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

Baloney. Most prisoners at Gitmo were swept up by rival Afghans looking for a cash bounty. Most have not been charged with any crimes. Check your facts.

__________________
2004 VW Jetta TDI (manual)

Past MB's: '96 E300D, '83 240D, '82 300D, '87 300D, '87 420SEL

My...aren't we dismissive today! I've heard the stories...sure, it probably happened...but, the up-side of that is that we didn't arbitrarily (sp?) shoot 'em all to let GOD sort 'em out later...eh?

War is SUCH a messy business...profitable for the right folks...but, oh so messy...

Let's just sort out the good from the bad and when we've determined the ones that got the bad deal, we'll hand them a Happy Meal with a mint-flavored goats-milk shake and a plane-ticket back to their little hovel in Sandinthepantstan, Outer Swobodia...

Allah be praised!

Oh! I almost forgot...President "O" giving them each an "I'm sorry that we're the United States" apology...

.

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M. G. Burg
'10 - Dakota SXT - Daily Ride / ≈ 172.5K
.'76 - 450SLC - 107.024.12 / < .89.20 K
..'77 - 280E - 123.033.12 / > 128.20 K
...'67 - El Camino - 283ci / > 207.00 K
....'75 - Yamaha - 650XS / < 21.00 K
.....'87 - G20 Sportvan / > 206.00 K
......'85 - 4WINNS 160 I.O. / 140hp
.......'74 - Honda CT70 / Real 125
.
“I didn’t really say everything I said.”
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ~ Yogi Berra ~

True, but it's possible that minimal harshness is the most effective way to prevent an attack.

Perhaps a tortured detainee WOULD give up valuable info, if he didn't have the option of floating various lies that will take time to check out -- lies that will do for now to stop the torture.

If the guy is still in Jihaddist mind-set, he's steeling himself to expect the infidel to be a scumsucking dog. When we torture him, it only strengthens his resolve to bring us to grief.

OTOH, if you confound his world view by treating him with respect, his confusion along with a cultivated Stockholm syndrome might well move him to voluntarily give out accurate info. It happened with the cookie guy. I heard a former long time army interrogator on NPR claim that getting messages to and from family members of detainees at various conflicts had a remarkable effect as well.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

How many waterboard threads do we need?

I think that you have it exactly backwards. Because we believe in the rule of law, we will not convict someone using illegally obtained evidence. That does not mean that we shouldn't continue to spy on foreign enemies and do other things that will give us vital information but will not produce evidence to be used in court. It is this separation between law enforcement and intelligence that lead to the creation of the so-called wall that many on the right say was to blame for 9-11.

Sounds like common sense to me, which is why we haven't seen enough of this sort of thing in recent years.

This is actually a thread about cookies used for intel gathering. Waterboarding is incidental history. Discredited history.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K