Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Evert statistical study I have seen shows that right-to-carry does indeed lower crime. I know it seems counter-intuitive, but there is truth in the title of the book, More Guns=Less Violence
The myth is that right-to-carry will produce blood in the streets. However the experience in Virginia, and Florida run counter to that assumption.
Criminals will not obey the law anyway--guns are one of their tools=of=the=trade. and they will get them, and use them. Law-abiding gun owners are not a threat to other citizens.

Why is it that the places with the strictest gun laws have the highest crime? Hint--the high crime rate did not come first....

So again, I ask, of what purpose are gun laws?

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

NO!!!
That is exactly wrong. The point is that our rights existed BEFORE there was any Constitution. The Constitution merely recognized those rights.
If you accept the construction that the Constitution actually grants our Rights, then you set up the situation where the government grants our rights, and therefore the government can deny those rights, or change those rights. At which point they cease to be RIGHTS and fall under the definition of privileges.
I, as a self sufficient human being and citizen of the USA have RIGHTS. I do not beg the government to allow me to speak freely, or to assemble freely with people of my oiwn choosing. I worship at the church of my own choosing; not by the permission of the government. The press is free to print whatever it wants without persecution from the ruling classes--except if they strat into areas of lible.
Please understand that these rights exist apart from the government--thatis what makes them rights.
I don't see how there can even be any argument over this. This is so basic to understanding what this American experiment in a democratic republic was all about. If even this basic understanding is lost, then the country is already lost. This is not a partisan issue. Can't we all agree on it?

Originally Posted by RichC

Utter silliness !
Gun laws are in place to keep guns out of the hands of people unable to responsibly use them.
Do you want to start passing out AK's to the parolees at the local prison or mental institution ?

The studies you are refering to must be myopic and biased.

Look at different countries and their respective gun laws and you will see some truth.

Crime and guns are not two extreams of the same specturm.

There are many factors that push crime rates up or down.

It it obvious that passing out guns to every person on the street will not solve the crime problem.

Using your logic
We should give everyone weapons of mass destruction.
That would solve the global crime problem

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

X2, its scary that the basic understanding is lost on many people.

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

X2, its scary that the basic understanding is lost on many people.

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Thank You. It is very basic, and it is disturbing that so many just do not see the point.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

What's so disturbing about it? I find it disturbing that you find it disturbing that not everyone believes in some invisible being that supposedly created all of us and gave us some rights.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

I don't think it matters. The truth is, you have rights because the govt lets you have rights. The govt could take them away, and your Creator wouldn't do a damn thing about it.

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Utter hyperbole!

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

My M1 Carbine would.

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

Thats not the point. The point of the constitution is you are born with rights, they are not given to you by the government, or constitution. You are born with them, and the constitution spells them out to prevent the government from taking them.

The creator part is just from everyone being religous during that time period, and our country is founded on Jewdeo/Christian principals.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

I don't think it matters. The truth is, you have rights because the govt lets you have rights. The govt could take them away, and your Creator wouldn't do a damn thing about it.

Originally Posted by Chas H

Would what?
Why don't you enlist so you don't appear to be a wannabe?

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Now do these rights that you're born with apply only to Americans or all people on this planet?

Frankly I still don't see how it matters what you're born with, since it's the country's constitution where you reside that determines whether you get any rights. I'm just thinking practically rather than philosophically.

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Now do these rights that you're born with apply only to Americans or all people on this planet?

Frankly I still don't see how it matters what you're born with, since it's the country's constitution where you reside that determines whether you get any rights. I'm just thinking practically rather than philosophically.