Another attack on the 2nd Amendment - Page 7 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

DieselAddict · #91 06-11-2009, 06:04 PM

I guess I get it now. The idea that we're born with these rights is to make the govt respect them. Is that how it is? But history has shown that it doesn't always work. Personally I don't need to believe that I was born with something to make me demand it.

MS Fowler · #92 06-11-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

What's so disturbing about it? I find it disturbing that you find it disturbing that not everyone believes in some invisible being that supposedly created all of us and gave us some rights.

You atheism has blinded you to the real point I was making.

Jim B. · #93 06-11-2009, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Personally I don't need to believe that I was born with something to make me demand it.

Like a winning Lottery ticket?

MS Fowler · #94 06-11-2009, 08:58 PM

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Originally Posted by tankdriver

The rights are inherent. The rights can easily be violated when the powerful impose their will on the weak in practice. No piece of paper is going to change that. Unless the powerful accept the ideas described on the paper.

It's akin to a perception v. reality argument. Since we are limited in our ability to perceive, is there such a thing as reality? How would we know what it is? Does it matter?

It is the founding document for this country. It is what gives this government legitimacy. Of courser, by force of arms, they can violate it. The Founders were familiar with oppressive government and wanted to create one with the powers defined and divided in such a way as to have a good chance of that government of the people, by the people and for the people had a chance to survive.

Matt L · #95 06-11-2009, 09:06 PM

"By the people" precludes "by God."

LUVMBDiesels · #96 06-11-2009, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Lets be REAL clear aboiut this point. The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights recognizes rights that are unalienable; it did not GRANT those rights. The Rights come from the Creator. Government is restricted from infringing on them.

Remember, the Founders were very familiar with living under an all powerful government. They were determined to preserve freedom of individual actions as long as possible. That it lasted 200 years was notable.

This is why I used the word CONFIRMED not GRANTED or GIVEN. The Constitution is an affirmation of these rights. It confirms that these rights exist (something no other government document anywhere in the world did at that time) and removes the ability of the government to impede or remove those rights from the people.

Hatterasguy · #97 06-11-2009, 09:45 PM

I'm reading a good book now that will give you a flavor of those times:

A Narrative of a Revolutionary Soldier, Some of the Adventures, Dangers, and Sufferings of Joseph Plumb Martin.

It really shows you what these guys went through fighting what was at the time the worlds best trained and equiped army. Many battles were extremely lopsided.

LUVMBDiesels · #98 06-11-2009, 10:03 PM

Off topic, but you are right. I have been to The sites of the Battle of Stony Point, Monmouth, Valley Forge, etc and the conditions our soldiers had to put up with would have made the Viet Cong go home in disgust... The British troops and their mercenaries were the best equipped, highly trained, well motivated soldiers around. The Continentals did not stand a chance except for three things, The Atlantic ocean was a much bigger barrier back then, The Americans WERE proficient with their firearms and with stalking animals and hiding by using the land as opposed to marching in blocks, and the help the Continentals got from France and other nations in the way of money, arms, and training. The French fleet showing up did not hurt either.

If you go back to the days of the Revolution and before, you can see that the right to bear arms was very restricted in Europe. Only the gentry could bear arms. This prevented most nations from rising up to remove oppressive governments. Only in Britain did a revolution happen and that was one of the government overthrowing the royalty.
The 2nd amendment was put in IN MY OPINION (don't tase me) to prevent a ruling class from being able to sequester weapons to remove the method of final recourse from an oppressed people.

DieselAddict · #99 06-11-2009, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

You atheism has blinded you to the real point I was making.

Sorry that I have a religious BS radar. I still think it doesn't matter what rights you think you were born with. What matters is what rights your government allows you to have and what rights you demand. For example blacks had to fight for their rights even though there were supposedly some rights they were born with, but that was BS.

MS Fowler · #**100** 06-12-2009, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Sorry that I have a religious BS radar. I still think it doesn't matter what rights you think you were born with. What matters is what rights your government allows you to have and what rights you demand. For example blacks had to fight for their rights even though there were supposedly some rights they were born with, but that was BS.

There are always inequities. However, the blacks, or any other minority could only get those rights because a majority of the whites realized that to continue to deprive them was morally wrong.

Matt L · #**101** 06-12-2009, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

There are always inequities. However, the blacks, or any other minority could only get those rights because a majority of the whites realized that to continue to deprive them was morally wrong.

I do believe that the majority of whites did not have such a realization. The majority that did were in the courts. People's hearts changed after the law changed. Decades after. Many still haven't.

MS Fowler · #**102** 06-12-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

I do believe that the majority of whites did not have such a realization. The majority that did were in the courts. People's hearts changed after the law changed. Decades after. Many still haven't.

I agree that there were, and will always be pockets of racism. But how many white soldiers fought and died on the side of Union, and the abolition of slavery during the American Civial War? Don't depreciate their actions.
Minorities in any society can only achieve their Rights with the consent of the majority. If the majority were racists, and decided to riot and take action in the streets, do you think that there would have been any chance of "Equal Rights"?

aklim · #**103** 06-12-2009, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt L

I do believe that the majority of whites did not have such a realization. The majority that did were in the courts. People's hearts changed after the law changed. Decades after. Many still haven't.

Here is the thing. Many haven't because they see things like AA that is nothing more than reverse discrimination pushing the inept up and giving them chances that they don't have. They aren't going to feel good about that. I didn't get the job I wanted because a minority got it because the company might have had to meet the quota. How do you convince them to get over that? Japan and the sports groups are a shining example. Black people and the Japs have thrived. Slowly but surely. Nobody can doubt them today. Do you think you can walk up to a professional athelete and say "If it wasn't for AA you would not be here."? Tell the Japs "You make junk cars.". If you want to do that, stand back and wait for the laughter. OTOH, maybe they are too busy doing what they do best to bother to laugh at you. Sure, it took time but they achieved what they achieved because of their work. That is something nobody can deny. I can say that I don't want to buy a Jap car because my father was killed by Japs but there is no way I can say they make crap. Not when the Big 2.5 are in troube because of them. Those are solid gains they can take pride in and hold their head up high.

DieselAddict · #**104** 06-12-2009, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Minorities in any society can only achieve their Rights with the consent of the majority. If the majority were racists, and decided to riot and take action in the streets, do you think that there would have been any chance of "Equal Rights"?

Not necessarily. These things are usually decided by the courts and they don't always agree with public majority opinion. Gay marriage today is a good example. Minority rights should not simply be determined by the majority. That's where courts come in.

The civil war may have provided blacks with their freedom, but it wasn't until another 100 years or so later that they got some real meaningful rights.

tankdriver · #**105** 06-12-2009, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Not necessarily. These things are usually decided by the courts and they don't always agree with public majority opinion. Gay marriage today is a good example. Minority rights should not simply be determined by the majority. That's where courts come in.

That's still basically what MS Fowler said. The majority consents to abide by the rule of the court. It doesn't have to, it can choose to ignore the courts, as you pointed out happened post-Civil War.
Minority rights are not determined by majority. The practical defense or non-defense of minority rights is in the hands of the majority.