Who was right? - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Chas H · #76 07-23-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynalow

Gates says he was cuffed as soon as he walked out his door following the cop. He says he was surprised that there were a bunch of police on the porch then.
Here's Gates being interviewed from the Vineyard, sounding pretty smug.
You be the judge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssvC3lR-6-8

Crowley's version of the cuffing is different. With a bunch of cops there, it seems simple to me to establish whose version is corrrect.

"It's about making it a lesson, so it doesn't happen again..."

I think Gates is justified in making a lesson of the incident.
If you look at the opening shot in your video, Gates is shown being led out of his house in handcuffs.

aklim · #77 07-23-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

The black man makes some angry, insulting, and arrogant remarks.

For this, the black man goes to jail, even after complying with the officer's request.

Lets not forget the threats.

Which request? The one to calm down and not cause a disturbance TWICE?

dynalow · #78 07-23-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

The photos clearly show Gates in handcuffs being led out of his house. Until you recognize that fact you're not dealing with facts.
Gates did follow not the police outside, he was lead outside by the police.
Gates was arrested, as evidenced by the 'cuffs inside his house. The charge was, as you posted, public abuse. The incident happened in Gates house, not in the public.

In his own words,

Gates followed Crowley out to the porch.
He was arrested on the porch.
He says the only thing he would do differently would be to not follow him onto the porch.
Listen to the interview I posted.

raslaje · #79 07-23-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dculkin

Since when does an American have a duty to identify himself in his own home?

Certainly when the cop is answering a call to put his life on the line to protect your home and you.

I forgot I had the alarm set and entered through a different door. I missed the phone call from the protection service and the cop was here in a flash. He asked to see a piece of mail and my identification. I was happy to do so. And impressed and thankful with the speed of response.

If the professor wouldn't have responded the same way if the cop was black, then he's a racist.

Chas H · #80 07-23-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynalow

In his own words,

Gates followed Crowley out to the porch.
He was arrested on the porch.
He says the only thing he would do differently would be to not follow him onto the porch.
Listen to the interview I posted.

Sorry, I'm hearing impaired. Got an interview with captions?
But the cops asked Gates to go outside. If he had not done so, couldn't he be arrested for that? How can a man's home be considered a public place. That's the bottom line of his arrest. Do you and the others supporting the action of the police believe a man's home to be a public place?

mgburg · #81 07-23-2009, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

You're constructing a fantasy to support your opinion. That's a strawman argument and a fallacy of logic.

What part am I constructing? The non-sticking door argument? That's making a point...if Crowley had acted like the Milwaukee officers had, and just took Gates at his word that he lived there...that would have been one thing...but if that is how Crowley is SUPPOSE to act when confronting a "black" man 'cause that's how the "black" man wants to be treated...it ain't going to happen...'cause then, if Gates wasn't the man in the house but a different "black" man and when Gates FINALLY gets home, sees his place broken into...again...and calls and finds out out that cops had already been there and did nothing other than chat with the guy...then Gates would be bent a different direction...

You can't have your academic cake and eat it too...

It still gets back to the point that Crowley acted in a proper manner...

Gates acted in a belligerant manner...

Gates got treated like EVERY OTHER PERSON WITH A FAT MOUTH...PROPERLY...

"Black" community of fat mouths shot theirs off...

The one guy that shouldn't have said anything got baited by an idiotic press corps and opens mouth and inserts foot...

A local poli-wonk decided to throw his penny's worth of idiocy on the pile...

Now, three people need to apologize for being idiots, sit down and shut up...

And one person, representing all others of his kind, needs to accept the apologies and give the press the "cold shoulder" on the situation...

The story should die an appropriate death...

aklim · #82 07-23-2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

The photos clearly show Gates in handcuffs being led out of his house. Until you recognize that fact you're not dealing with facts.
Gates did follow not the police outside, he was lead outside by the police.
Gates was arrested, as evidenced by the 'cuffs inside his house. The charge was, as you posted, public abuse. The incident happened in Gates house, not in the public.

But what does that mean? I see the pic of him being led from the house in cuffs but that does not mean that he was cuffed there, does it? Remember the part in the report about him wanting a cane and having someone from maintenance secure the house? Could there not be some back and forth between the outside and house?

Again, if you want to assert that the cop was rude or a racist, that is another story. I am only talking about the part where he was outside and continued screaming and yelling and warned twice before the cuffs came on. If you want to dispute that part of the report you are telling me that the cop made a blatant lie in the report when there were witnesses outside. Is that what you are saying? All the parts inside the house might be a "he said, she said" deal. I believe the report from the point where he was OUTSIDE the house seeing as there would be other cops and witnesses as the report mentioned.

mgburg · #83 07-23-2009, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

Sorry, I'm hearing impaired. Got an interview with captions?
But the cops asked Gates to go outside. If he had not done so, couldn't he be arrested for that? How can a man's home be considered a public place. That's the bottom line of his arrest. Do you and the others supporting the action of the police believe a man's home to be a public place?

Officers can put cuffs on you anywhere you want to take it...

You debate an officer, you lose.

You argue with an officer, you lose.

You don't talk with an officer, you lose.

And there's nothing in the Constitution about about being an IDIOT and secure in your personage...

Be obtuse with an officer...you lose.

Crowley - 1 / Gates - 0

And that score is a final...

aklim · #84 07-23-2009, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

But the cops asked Gates to go outside.

If he had not done so, couldn't he be arrested for that? How can a man's home be considered a public place. That's the bottom line of his arrest.

Do you and the others supporting the action of the police believe a man's home to be a public place?

They did not order him outside. With his beligerence, the cop told him that he would answer any questions outside. That is different from Gates being ordered out. He was under NO obligation to leave the premises. It is akin to us disputing this and me telling you "Hey. Lets take this to someplace private.". You DO NOT have to go there.

If he had gone outside and not yelled, could he have been arrested? If he had gone outside and heeded the cops 2 warnings to not cause a ruckus, would he have got arrested? Talk about simplistic and not getting the facts. Fact was he was NOT ordered outside. Fact was he was NOT ordered to create a ruckus. Fact was he was warned twice about creating a ruckus. He was NOT ordered outside to be arrested from the report. Now, if you can come up with witnesses that will testify that he was cuffed the instant he was outside, you would have a point. He was NOT under arrest until he followed the cop outside of his own free will, created a ruckus and ignored 2 requests to tone it down. The cop was already leaving the scene after the University ID was produced and the matter handed over to the campus cops.

That depends. If the disturbance you create doesn't spill out onto the street, play ball. OTOH, if you put stadium speakers in your house and turn up the volume, do you think that should still be considered your property and your right to keep the neighbors up?

kerry · #85 07-23-2009, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

Officers can put cuffs on you anywhere you want to take it...

You debate an officer, you lose.

You argue with an officer, you lose.

You don't talk with an officer, you lose.

D

Exactly what I meant my authoritarianism. Thanks.

dynalow · #86 07-23-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chas H

Sorry, I'm hearing impaired. Got an interview with captions?
But the cops asked Gates to go outside. If he had not done so, couldn't he be arrested for that? How can a man's home be considered a public place.

That's the bottom line of his arrest. Do you and the others supporting the action of the police believe a man's home to be a public place?

It was an radio interview. I don't know if a text is available.

Apparently, your front porch is a public place, at least in Mass. for certain things. Seems reasonable to me that it be so. Some things you can't do on a porch that are legal inside your home.

Maybe the officer tried to entice him into following him outside, where he knew he could arrest him. Maybe. But I think Gates in the interview says the cop turned and walked away after Gates asked him his name and ID number.
Crowley walked out the door. Gates made a mistake and followed him outside onto the porch, where he, apparently, could be and was arrested for making a public disturbance.

There were plenty of witnesses to the endgame on the porch to coorborate whoever is telling the truth.

Inside my front door, no. It's my home.

I think the bottom line of this arrest is two guys with their own attitudes and bruised egos colliding. Whether the cop enticed him onto the porch with the intent to arrest him is debatable I suppose. Nothing in the officers background gives credence to this though.

aklim · #87 07-23-2009, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynalow

Crowley walked out the door. Gates made a mistake and followed him outside onto the porch, where he, apparently, could be and was arrested for making a public disturbance.

That was not the mistake. Gates did follow him outside. However, Gates also created a public disturbance and ignored 2 requests to tone it down. He was warned twice. If you say he was not warned at all and arrested I will agree with you that the cop got him on a technicality since no warning might be needed. OTOH, when there are 2 warnings and a set of cuffs comes out, you can't simply say "OMG!!! I didn't know this would happen.".

kerry · #88 07-23-2009, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dynalow

I think the bottom line of this arrest is two guys with their own attitudes and bruised egos colliding. Whether the cop enticed him onto the porch with the intent to arrest him is debatable I suppose. Nothing in the officers background gives credence to this though.

Agreed on the first part. I don't know anything about the officer's background so I don't know about the last. But in any case, bad police work because the whole affair is consuming resources that could be better spent elsewhere.

Chas H · #89 07-23-2009, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

Officers can put cuffs on you anywhere you want to take it...

You debate an officer, you lose.

You argue with an officer, you lose.

You don't talk with an officer, you lose.

And there's nothing in the Constitution about about being an IDIOT and secure in your personage...

Be obtuse with an officer...you lose.

Crowley - 1 / Gates - 0

And that score is a final...

Wrong.
A man in his home should be able to not only argue with a cop but verbally abuse the officer. As to the Constitution, the powers of the g'ment are defined and restricted. The people have the right to do anything that is not proscribed. And that ncludes being an idiot.
I will agree Gates acted as an idiot, but if we go there, then the cops acted as idiots too. And that gets a cop in trouble.
The charge against Gates is based on being in public. Do you think a man's home is public?

Chas H · #90 07-23-2009, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

That was not the mistake. Gates did follow him outside. However, Gates also created a public disturbance and ignored 2 requests to tone it down. He was warned twice. If you say he was not warned at all and arrested I will agree with you that the cop got him on a technicality since no warning might be needed. OTOH, when there are 2 warnings and a set of cuffs comes out, you can't simply say "OMG!!! I didn't know this would happen.".

How can a man create public disturbance in his own home?