Public Roads, Public Parks, and the Public Health Care Option - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

tankdriver · #46 08-24-2009, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

If there is so much money to be made then why doesn't the Red Cross enter the health care bis and make a billion or two and then take that billion and put it into it's own operation?

The same reason Bill Gates is not an oil man.

MS Fowler · #47 08-24-2009, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Do you not understand that an all voulenteer fire or ambulance service would fall under the catagory of Socialism ?
.

I must not understand "socialism" then. Volunteer FD are citizen-run; they are not run by the State. They raise funds in a variety of ways. Most VFDs I know stage a carnival and raffles for fund raisers. I guess they apply for whatever government aid might be out there, but how does that make them socialist?
They were started and run by citizens--pure grass roots, bottom-up organization. The government, at no lever that I am aware did anything to help. In fact governments sometimes oppose them to win support of unionized fire fighters.

Explain, please, how they are socialistic.

DieselAddict · #48 08-24-2009, 05:50 PM

Is the government not citizen-run? VFD's are nothing but a small version of a local govt, i.e. people getting together for the common good. Entirely socialistic.

DieselAddict · #49 08-24-2009, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Do you not understand that an all voulenteer fire or ambulance service would fall under the catagory of Socialism ?

And what truly amazes me is that you say your a government employee.
And then go on to expain how bad of a job the government does.

And one of you final lines made me rub my eyes, and do a double take.
"Open the existing Federal health plans to anybody not covered by their employer."

If you really support this idea, then you support the public healthcare option.
But you want to give it a name like " expanded medicare ".
Same benifits, same type of coverage, still managed by the public sector, just a different name.

Good one.

DieselAddict · #50 08-24-2009, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squabble

another statement of the obvious:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/24/opinion/24krugman.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

I especially like this part:

Quote:

The debate over the public option has, as I said, been depressing in its inanity. Opponents of the option — not just Republicans, but Democrats like Senator Kent Conrad and Senator Ben Nelson — have offered no coherent arguments against it. Mr. Nelson has warned ominously that if the option were available, Americans would choose it over private insurance — which he treats as a self-evidently bad thing, rather than as what should happen if the government plan was, in fact, better than what private insurers offer.

An excellent example of the incoherency and grasping at straws of the public option opponents. Like I said in another thread, if the opposition had some constructive criticism to offer, I'd welcome it and it would go a long way toward good reform of health care. But instead the opposition spreads fear about things that don't exist and were never proposed like death panels. That contributes absolutely nothing to intelligent and meaningful health care reform but I guess that was never the goal of the mainstream opposition in the first place.

MS Fowler · #51 08-24-2009, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

Is the government not citizen-run? VFD's are nothing but a small version of a local govt, i.e. people getting together for the common good. Entirely socialistic.

No, its not at all like local government.
VFDs have no power to tax, nor do they employ men with guns to coerce the citizens to ensure they get the money. They pass no laws restricting the rights of people, they grant to political favors and pay their friends from the public treasury. VFDs are totally voluntary.

davidmash · #52 08-24-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

Here's a question for you, What purpose is served by the mowing of highway right of Ways? How are the roads improved by this "public" service?

So I can see around the corner. Fire hazard? Rodent control.

TimFreeh · #53 08-24-2009, 07:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DieselAddict

I especially like this part:

An excellent example of the incoherency and grasping at straws of the public option opponents.

The bottom line is those people that trust the government think that the public option is fine and needed... and those of us that don't trust the government are skeptical and don't think government entry in yet another aspect of our lives is the answer.

Looking at what the government has 'accomplished" over the last 30-40 years and the level of debt we have accumulated as a nation I think I have a pretty good reason to be skeptical of yet another new government program to improve our lives and lower costs.

Grasping at straws in your mind? Really? You don't see any basis for my concerns?

kerry · #54 08-24-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

. VFDs are totally voluntary.

Why do you associate socialism with involuntary? Socialism can be voluntary/involuntary in the same way that capitalism can be voluntary/involuntary.
The VFD is socialist because it is a group of people joining together to obtain a goal which would be unobtainable without group organization. This is very similar to what would be accomplished with a public health care option. It's clear that low paid workers are unable to afford health insurance. (My health insurance runs $1100 per month for a family. How far above minimum wage would a person have to be to afford that in addition to living expenses?) How can universal health care coverage be achieved given this fact? Thru a public health care insurance system similar to what most other industrialized countries have instituted to achieve the same goal. Public options have (without exception I believe) provided universal health care at a lower cost than capitalized health care in the US.

TimFreeh · #55 08-24-2009, 07:26 PM

What grade would you "public option" proponents give to our public schools?

How have they done in your minds? Do you think we are getting a good value for the money we spend on public education?

We have been spending vast sums of money on public education in the last couple of decades and not seeing much in the way of results. Nobody in government seems to be able to fix the problems.... but they are pretty good about spending more money on education.

I guess I'd feel better about the public option in health care if I felt better about our results in public schools.

davidmash · #56 08-24-2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

No, its not at all like local government.
VFDs have no power to tax, nor do they employ men with guns to coerce the citizens to ensure they get the money. They pass no laws restricting the rights of people, they grant to political favors and pay their friends from the public treasury. VFDs are totally voluntary.

A 'socialistic' organization does not require a formal government to exist nor does it require taxes to support it.

Here is one definition that I found:

Quote:

a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

Sounds like a VFD to me.

A kibutz is also 'socialistic' with no government or taxes involved.

kerry · #57 08-24-2009, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TimFreeh

What grade would you "public option" proponents give to our public schools?

How have they done in your minds? Do you think we are getting a good value for the money we spend on public education?

We have been spending vast sums of money on public education in the last couple of decades and not seeing much in the way of results. Nobody in government seems to be able to fix the problems.... but they are pretty good about spending more money on education.

I guess I'd feel better about the public option in health care if I felt better about our results in public schools.

Our public education system is superior to many around the world. People from around the world flock to our public university system. As far as public k12 education goes, my daughter attends a high school that is far superior to the public high school I attended in the 60's. Virtually all the AP Physics students earned a 5, the highest mark possible on the AP exam. This in an city public school system that people are found of decrying as inadequate.

If you compare the public school system to the option for health care being advocated from the right, we would have masses of poor students with no access to education at all which we be an even bigger drag on the advancement of society than having masses of poor people without access to health care.

LUVMBDiesels · #58 08-24-2009, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RichC

Do you not understand that an all voulenteer fire or ambulance service would fall under the catagory of Socialism ?

And what truly amazes me is that you say your a government employee.
And then go on to expain how bad of a job the government does.

And one of you final lines made me rub my eyes, and do a double take.
"Open the existing Federal health plans to anybody not covered by their employer."

If you really support this idea, then you support the public healthcare option.
But you want to give it a name like " expanded medicare ".
Same benifits, same type of coverage, still managed by the public sector, just a different name.

I am not even going to dignify the first comment equating volunteerism with socialism. I guess anything could be construed as Socialist if you broaden the definition enough.

Yes I am a Federal employee -- are you? If not, then you have NO IDEA what goes on behind the scenes at a big Federal Agency. I am against Government getting involved in anything new. I joined the Government out of a misguided sense of wanting to give back to this nation that has been so good to me and my family. I took a 54% pay cut and moved 300 miles to do so. Boy was I in for a surprise. I have never seen the kind of petty political backstabbing, laziness, cover my @ss mentality anywhere (and I can send you my resume if you are interested where I have worked) before! I do not turst the average Govvie to blow my nose much less determine health care for the 'great unwashed' -- because that is how they view the average person. Do you want the same people who paw through your luggage at the airport pawing through your medical records?

As for my idea of expanding the EXISTING private insurance groups to include anybody without current coverage -- who is willing to pay their way IS NOT THE PUBLIC OPTION. Simply expanding the existing groups is not the same as enrolling everybody in Medicare. For one thing employees have a choice of over 20 private plans run by companies like Blue Cross/Blue Shield. This is not the same as a single payer plan administered by federal employees.

I see you have no comments about the real reforms I wrote about... I guess this is just a way for more government control in your eyes...

Palangi · #59 08-24-2009, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyRoger

I don't GAS if Pol Pot founded it.

I don't suppose you would.

LUVMBDiesels · #60 08-24-2009, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

A 'socialistic' organization does not require a formal government to exist nor does it require taxes to support it.

Here is one definition that I found:
Quote:
a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
Sounds like a VFD to me.

A kibutz is also 'socialistic' with no government or taxes involved.

The difference is the small 's' Vs the Capital 'S'

I have no problems with small 's' organizations like charities, VFDs, Cub Scouts, etc. I do have a problem with the idea that Big Government with it's "Scientific" ways of looking at things in a theoretical way has all the answers and that the same Government knows how to do things for the 'common good' Small 's' socialism works very well, just like the VFD. Large 'S' socialism leads to the labour riots in the UK back before Iron Maggie.

If a group under LOCAL control staffed by locals and working for local goals exists I support it. If the Health Care Reform would devolve control to the communities to band together and self-insure, that would be fine with me. What is NOT fine is unelected bureaucrats inside 495 deciding what is 'right' in Omaha or in Burlington...

This country was set up as a Federal Republic for a good reason, to keep power CLOSE to the PEOPLE. The more power is taken by the Feds, the less you have. If you are OK with that, you can always go to a country like France where the provinces have very little power and everything is under national control... Even the Labour government in the UK has realized this is not a good thing and has devolved power back to Scotland and Wales...