Canadian Health care WINS and WINS BIG! - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

aklim · #31 11-06-2009, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveuz

Explain please.

With our healthcare, I can still get it by going to the ER and leeching off others. In the case of the MB, I cannot go take it and not get arrested for theft.

lutzTD · #32 11-06-2009, 07:09 PM

what I see as a main difference and one that is oft not discussed between the US situation and the Canadian, European or whatever, maybe one of our northern neighbors can let me know if this is also true there. In the US, we have a culture of entitlement, dare I say even miltant feelings that a person should have what everyone else has, whether it is earned or not. I have seen it my whole life, there is a huge segment of our population that believe the system owes them, and take great pride in working the system to thier favor to achieve benefits neither needed or deserved. this is at work in our foodstamp and welfare system as well as our heathcare system. it is what keeps millions of lawyers on TV telling people to call if they have even a minor accident or feeling they have been wronged. I have not seen this culture of entitlement anywhere else in the world. I make OK money, but the last thing I want is another system that forces me to carry people with no ambition or drive, that just have 10 kids to stay on the welfare train. I dont have any issue helping those who need help, but I still believe the numbers in the welfare roles are swelled by 1/2 with people who could work and just chose to not work, the heathcare system will be another system that is drained of its resourses by those who just chose not to contribute and always want to take

hill · #33 11-06-2009, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlomon

Yes, you misunderstood. Our income tax works is based on a certain percentage of tax being charged on a certain income band.

The federal rates for 2009 are as follows:

•15% on the first $40,726 of taxable income, +
•22% on the next $40,726 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $40,726 and $81,452), +
•26% on the next $44,812 of taxable income (on the portion of taxable income between $81,452 and $126,264), +
•29% of taxable income over $126,264.

The rates for the province of Ontario for 2009 are as follows:

6.05% on the first $36,848 of taxable income, +
9.15% on the next $36,850, +
11.16% on the amount over $73,698

Additionally, there is a certain portion of your income that is tax exempt, both federally and provincially. It is in the area of $10,000 but I don't remember the exact amoutn.

So if you made $75,000 and lived in Ontario, your tax would look something like this:

Federal tax: 0 on the first 10,000.
15% on the amount between $10,000 and $40, 726 = $4608.90
22% on the amount between $40,726 and $75,000 = $7540.28

Total Federal tax = $12149.18

Provincial tax: 0 on the first 10,000
6.05% on the amount from 10,000 to 36,848 = 1624.30
9.15% on the amount from 36,848 to 73,698 = 3371.78
11.16% on the amount between 73,698 and 75,000 = 145.30

Total Ontario tax = 5141.38

Total Tax = $12149.18 + 5141.38 = 17290.56

Total tax (17290.56) divided into total income (75000) = 23.05% average tax rate.

Everyone falls into the average. It is the combination of all your tiered tax amounts divided into your total income to come up with an average taxation rate.

Now I see says the blind man.

So here my average tax is 22% fed +7.5 cali.

And yours is 25% combined.

So living in Vancouver, I could pay less taxes and get healthcare.

Thanks for the info, now I feel stupid on two things today.

aklim · #34 11-06-2009, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD

what I see as a main difference and one that is oft not discussed between the US situation and the Canadian, European or whatever, maybe one of our northern neighbors can let me know if this is also true there. In the US, we have a culture of entitlement, dare I say even miltant feelings that a person should have what everyone else has, whether it is earned or not. I have seen it my whole life, there is a huge segment of our population that believe the system owes them, and take great pride in working the system to thier favor to achieve benefits neither needed or deserved. this is at work in our foodstamp and welfare system as well as our heathcare system. it is what keeps millions of lawyers on TV telling people to call if they have even a minor accident or feeling they have been wronged. I have not seen this culture of entitlement anywhere else in the world. I make OK money, but the last thing I want is another system that forces me to carry people with no ambition or drive, that just have 10 kids to stay on the welfare train. I dont have any issue helping those who need help, but I still believe the numbers in the welfare roles are swelled by 1/2 with people who could work and just chose to not work, the heathcare system will be another system that is drained of its resourses by those who just chose not to contribute and always want to take

Pretty much sums it up. Not sure how many places outside the US feel that sense of entitlement

daveuz · #35 11-06-2009, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

With our healthcare, I can still get it by going to the ER and leeching off others. In the case of the MB, I cannot go take it and not get arrested for theft.

Than we are both saying the same thing. I somehow missed your meaning.

tankdriver · #36 11-06-2009, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD

what I see as a main difference and one that is oft not discussed between the US situation and the Canadian, European or whatever, maybe one of our northern neighbors can let me know if this is also true there. In the US, we have a culture of entitlement, dare I say even miltant feelings that a person should have what everyone else has, whether it is earned or not. I have seen it my whole life, there is a huge segment of our population that believe the system owes them, and take great pride in working the system to thier favor to achieve benefits neither needed or deserved. this is at work in our foodstamp and welfare system as well as our heathcare system. it is what keeps millions of lawyers on TV telling people to call if they have even a minor accident or feeling they have been wronged. I have not seen this culture of entitlement anywhere else in the world. I make OK money, but the last thing I want is another system that forces me to carry people with no ambition or drive, that just have 10 kids to stay on the welfare train. I dont have any issue helping those who need help, but I still believe the numbers in the welfare roles are swelled by 1/2 with people who could work and just chose to not work, the heathcare system will be another system that is drained of its resourses by those who just chose not to contribute and always want to take

I hear a lot of people say this kind of thing. I wonder where it comes from. I think maybe people see one or two people on the news or in some story who take advantage and then extrapolate to everyone.

Every number I have seen, and they are easy to find, indicates that a minor percentage of the US population receives welfare. The vast majority of Americans do not. Medicaid, which will likely be enfolded into a public option should there be one, is a slightly larger percent.
The largest percentage of Americans assisted by the government are the 30some% who receive the EITC. I think whether the EITC is welfare is definitely debatable. But even then that still leaves 70% of Americans who do not receive government assistance.

lutzTD · #37 11-06-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tankdriver

I hear a lot of people say this kind of thing. I wonder where it comes from. I think maybe people see one or two people on the news or in some story who take advantage and then extrapolate to everyone.

Every number I have seen, and they are easy to find, indicates that a minor percentage of the US population receives welfare. The vast majority of Americans do not. Medicaid, which will likely be enfolded into a public option should there be one, is a slightly larger percent.
The largest percentage of Americans assisted by the government are the 30some% who receive the EITC. I think whether the EITC is welfare is definitely debatable. But even then that still leaves 70% of Americans who do not receive government assistance.

I grew up very poor, and saw it everywhere. in the shop I worked, in the schools, in the neighborhood. I will tell you from my personal experience I knew many families that cheated,and I saw many perfectly healthy people collect welfare and live in section 8 housing. they did however, drive some very nice cars, and you could buy food stamps for 50 cents on the dollar near the end of the month, they always had money for lottery

I dontknow how to fix it, I just know that a system based on a culture that wants to work as in Canada or Europe will not work in a cuture that wants it handed to them

jlomon · #38 11-06-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutzTD

I dontknow how to fix it, I just know that a system based on a culture that wants to work as in Canada or Europe will not work in a cuture that wants it handed to them

That's a tough one. Our news reports here will bring out stories from time to time of various people who have found a new way to scam the system. I'm sure that every country has a portion of their population like that. I don't know that our culture wants to work more than yours does and I don't know that I would make that generalization. I think the most obvious cultural difference that I can see is that Canadians are more willing to accept a greater degree of goverment intervention in return for a little more protection from the worst that can befall us. We're probably a little less entrepreneurial and don't have as much of that fiercely independent streak that is a part of the American character. The people in your society who are the best-off are certainly better off than their counterparts in Canada. Having said that, the worst off in your country are also much worse off than those who occupy the same portion of our society. So we've nibbled away at the edges of the spectrum in return for a more comfortable middle.

I don't necessarily believe that directly imposing our system on your country is the answer to your problems. Our system works for us because it was built by us, and takes our cultural peculiarities into account. You need to find something that works for you. Look at what we have, look at what other people have and look at what you have. Try to take the best available from all examples and try to learn from the mistakes we've all made. It isn't my place as a Canadian to tell you what to do in your country. I just take a great deal of exception to bold-faced lies being told about my country in order to advance a particular point of view.

Hatterasguy · #39 11-06-2009, 08:38 PM

The Europeans certainly want it handed to them. Just look at the French, 35 hour work week? Come on thats part time.

#40 11-06-2009, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

The Europeans certainly want it handed to them. Just look at the French, 35 hour work week? Come on thats part time.

LOL, that's not even half time.

Hatterasguy · #41 11-06-2009, 09:08 PM

Yeah I'm doing a project on human resurces in the UK for school, but its similer throughout the EU. You should see some of the BS that goes on over their.

The reason there unemployment is always so high is because its a cradle to grave society. You can never lift a finger and get by ok, so the lazy leaches love it. Figure 8%-10% of society is economicaly worthless in such societies.

lutzTD · #42 11-06-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlomon

I don't necessarily believe that directly imposing our system on your country is the answer to your problems. Our system works for us because it was built by us, and takes our cultural peculiarities into account. You need to find something that works for you. Look at what we have, look at what other people have and look at what you have. Try to take the best available from all examples and try to learn from the mistakes we've all made. It isn't my place as a Canadian to tell you what to do in your country. I just take a great deal of exception to bold-faced lies being told about my country in order to advance a particular point of view.

thats what I think too. so camparisons of systems doesnt make sense. dont try t ouse an asian cultural model and health system outside of asia, the cultural difference is what makes it work there and not here. same with a european model (unless you are in Cali) the Canadian model has good points but in general I think would fail here. the french are a whole different issue, and thier system will collapse around them unless they raise taxes yet again, and how much tax will be needed at 35hrs/week

HuskyMan · #43 11-06-2009, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlomon

Nobody is bleeding your system dry. That's just more ignorant propaganda. They are paying in full for services rendered. Quite often it is our national health care system that is footing the bill for those services. If you set up a system based on the tenet "money talks and bull$hit walks" then you can't cry foul when the money comes in search of the care.

You just don't get it, do you? There is a difference between the level of care available and the ability to actually access that care. Nobody here is arguing that the US has poor health care. You have great health care. What you have is poor access to that high standard of available care for a substantial portion of your population.

Canadian citizens should stay with the system they believe in and support with their tax $$$$. why should my $$$$ fund a system so that any foreigner who wants to gets to take advantage of it? and for the record, I have some close alliances in the health care biz who give me the straight scoop. the hospitals and the insurance companies both scratch each other's backs. no secret there, except one would not exist without the other. no medical insurance = no hospitals. therefore, MY medical insurance premiums are funding some of the world's best hospitals and for what? so that every tom, dick and harry from around the globe gets to come here and take advantage of them?

BTW, when a Canadian, Mexican (or foreigner from any other country for that matter) is taking up space in OUR surgical wards, it means that surgeon is tied up and not available to perform surgery on a citizen of the United States. I want to freeze the border for good to the NORTH and to the SOUTH and both coast lines. no tickie, no shirtie. something along the lines of the Great Wall of China on both the Canadian/U.S. and U.S./Mexican border would be a real nice start.......

anthonyb · #44 11-06-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hill

Now I see says the blind man.

So here my average tax is 22% fed +7.5 cali.

And yours is 25% combined.

So living in Vancouver, I could pay less taxes and get healthcare.

I saw those numbers and realized the same thing too.

Brandon_SLC · #45 11-07-2009, 12:00 AM

Despite what some Canadians are saying, this story sound completely plausible to me, based on real life experiences from relatives and friends who live in Canada.

Most people are satisfied with their health care system, until they get seriously ill.

My dad has stage 4 colon cancer with liver metastasis and he has permanent resident status in Canada, and has had since 1981. He had colon resection surgery 3 days after diagnosis, He started chemo 4 weeks after diagnoses. He believes he would be dead by now if he stayed in Canada. After treatment with Xeloda (Oral Chemotherapy) his liver tumors have shrunk by 3/4. Thank God he has Federal Blue Cross Blue Shield through his Federal retirement, and has elected to pay his monthly premium, even though he was being taxed for the Canadian Health System as well.

He has volunteered to drive several people from Church and places he's worked, who can not pay for US treatments on their own down to Seattle. He's paid for many diagnostic tests out of his own pocket, MRIs included.

Do the math, there simply aren't enough MRI machines in Canada to provide an MRI for everyone who needs one, in a timely manner.

When figuring the overall tax rate in Canada don't forget their ginormous sales taxes. They call them "Value added", as if the government is adding value to every product and service.

Also, bear in mind that every few years our government power structure does a 180 because we only have 2 political parties. No programs work as well in the US as they do in countries with several competing political parties. If dems don't want to compromise, they don't have to, which pretty much insures that when republicans take over they will re-write the Bill. In America, nothing the government does works well. Our constitution is different. There is no authority in our constitution for 2/3 of the crap Congress comes up with.