The book, The Family is sketching a very interesting history of elite fundamentalism in the US. At one point he argues that it developed in direct opposition to the Industrial Workers of the World. This being the case, my question about why fundamentalism and conservative sociopolitical views go hand in hand, is answered by the fact that it was deliberately developed to support the interest of the business classes and oppose the organizing efforts of the working class.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

nice. you're getting very warm.

makes one wonder about, say, the king james version of the bible?

( viewing the bible as a very socially influential document - regardless of its, uh, veracity - opens up the topic of the shaping of its message by "translators" and publishers, editors?)

(p.s. the propagandizing began with saul/paul, or even earlier?)

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"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

From my days growing up in the Mormon church my take is that people often have a yearning to feel as though they are special, are in select company, or have some special knowledge.

It sorta breaks my heart cause many in that crowd are good and decent people but the smug self-assurance that they are the true church, the only ones finding full favor in the eyes of God is something I could never get comfortable with.

Them who believe they have been born again and will be raptured up owing to their unassailable goodness and virtue similarly believe they have joined select ranks.

IMHO.

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Te futueo et caballum tuum

1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

You're really reaching here!
I'm not a fan of the KJV, for our time and our culture, but when it was done, it was the finest example of putting the Bible into the venacular, i.e. the common, everyday langauge of the peolpe. The Roman church wanted the Bible only in Latin so that the priests had to "interpret" it for the masses of people and therefore the priests had both ecclesiastical, AND politicial power.

When the Reformation made it to England, of course the King favored it, because it freed him from the power of the Pope. But beside this, the Reformation caused the people to clamor for God's wrtten Word in their own langague. King James was responding to the wants of people; it was not his aim to use it as a means to subjugate his people. As his subjects, they were already that. Who else but the king had the financial ability to bring together the scholars, scribes, and theologians required? It was published unfer his authority, of course it bears his name.

One more thing... Among the problems I have with the KJV is that the langauge is dated. When it was first printed, "Thee", and "Thou" and the verb forms used were the common langauge of the people. There was NOT a serparate "God-Langauge" as it appears today.

I have no argument with anyone saying that civilian leaders have used the Bible to justify their actions, and to keep the people "in their place", but to use the "King" in KJV as proof is over-reaching. Actually, its a case of jumping to a conclusion, and then looking for evidence to support it rather than examining the evidence and looking for a conclusion.

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1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

I'm seeing some interesting similarities between this character Abraham Vereide and Adolf Hitler. Both had encounters with the working class which led them to despise working class life and habits (alcohol, illicit sex, general lack of self-discipline in their mind) and develop ideologies in response which focused on social and political power at roughly the same time. Both had imperial ambitions but used very different methodologies. Both ideologies found homosexuality to be a useful target.
It would be intriguing to compare these two responses to Nietzsche's analysis of the decline of Western culture. In a very odd sort of way, US elite fundamentalism seems to be a perverted version of Nietzscheanism, perverted because it lacks self-consciousness in the assertion of the will to power.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Before this forum was started you admitted that you didn't even know the Tower of Babel was found .I did my share now prove to me that isn't the same one mentioned in the bible and the exact events didn't take place.




If you are a agnostic then why do you single out Christianity and attack it ? Or why attack any faith for that matter.
If you are admitting you don't know then how can you sit back and say for certain anyone else is wrong?



[a-1 + Gnostic.]
ag·nos'ti·cal·ly adv.

Word History: An agnostic does not deny the existence of God and heaven
but holds that one cannot know for certain whether or not they exist.

RELIGION
–noun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: .
3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices.
4. the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.
5. the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.
6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience:

Just you three different "agnostics" have seem to parroted the same set of beliefs and have proved yourselves to be members of a religion as stated in 1,2,3 and 6 of the definition of the word.


So now you have discovered that you are in fact RELIGIOUS!


Unless ,,, you don't believe in the existence of dictionaries,

I'm joining this discussion late. Has anyone read Blasphemy? It's a novel about science and fundamentalism. It's really quite an entertaining read.

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1993 W124 300D 2.5L Turbo, OM602.962
2000 Chevrolet Cavalier, 2.4L DOHC
2002 Ford Explorer, 4.0L SOHC
2005 Toyota Prius, 1.5L

http://www.fuelly.com/sig-us/40601.png

What do you mean by the tower of Babel? And who says it was found?

- Peter.

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Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

I'm not even sure it is the one mentioned. It is possible but the opposite exists too.

I thought that if you claimed it was, the onus of proof lies with you?

If you decide to bring up Islam or Judaism, I will label it the same way. Superstitious nonsense until they can prove it. I don't believe Siva or Vishnu is there either

Have they proved their claims yet?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
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05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
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I don't know if is the same one. It does bear some resemblance but who knows if it is that one or the another one. More than a slight resemblance has to be shown for something to be said to be "the one". There are many McDonnalds that look alike. However, I may be referring to a specific one that isn't on the list that you found.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
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11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

I don't get the whole Tower of Babel thing, what difference does it make? The Bible mentions Jerusalem. We know it exists. So what? It's religious significance depends on the idea that God gave that city/land to the Jews. (or the Muslims, or the Christians) How could anyone possibly know that? Jerusalem's theological significance is completely separate from its existence. Let's imagine that the 'real' Tower of Babel was found, that 'Noah's Ark' was found, that the bones of Abraham were found, or the shroud that wrapped Jesus' body was found. All those artifacts have no power whatosever to prove any single theological 'fact'.
It's one of the myths of fundamentalism that somehow, religion can be established by facts. Facts in and of themselves are inconsequental to morality and theology. Jesus died. Moses lead a group of Hebrews out of Egypt. Mohammed conquered Mecca and wrote a book. Paul fell of his donkey and had an unusual experience. Those 'facts' tell us nothing about whether religion is true, whether Christianity, Judaism or Islam are truly revealed by God.

Now back on topic. Fundamentalism is a bastard child of Nietzschean fascism serving as the ideological foundations for US capitalist elites and their imperial ambitions around the globe.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Nah! To simplisitcally leftoid.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

History seems to indicate otherwise.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

The difference is one guy claimed that he went thru the text and spent 500+ hrs and found that everything in it had scientific and historical truth.

If you don't even have all your ducks in a row, what do you expect? If your stories are full of holes on a trial, are we supposed to believe what you say? OTOH, if everything you said is solid, perhaps it might behoove us to actually see what you are talking about.

Saul was blinded and his sight restored when he decided to "play ball". That and some of the Old Testament stuff makes me wonder if this deity has evolved beyond screwing with people's lives to get something.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow