People have been worrying about this stuff for hundreds of years. Its human nature.

Were just seeing it a bit more now because the economy is still rocky, but its getting better so it will calm down for a bit.

__________________
2006 CL500
2009 C300 4matic
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

The "catch 22" that these folks can't resolve is that they want both cheap goods and high wages for everyone. The price for that choice is exporting your unskilled work to less expensive labor markets. When you make that choice, you better be able to stay one step ahead of the curve and innovate faster than everyone else on the planet. If you happen to be someone who is unable or unwilling to contribute to that innovation, you will find yourself in a service industry. Large numbers of those folks used to be able to hide in the manufacturing sector (with unsustainable wages), but those days are long gone.

These are the same folks who were still worrying about jobs "going to mexico" long after mexico was losing it's jobs to asia. China will be an amazing market once they develop a sizable consumer class, I just hope their banks don't implode in the mean time.

There will always be specialty manufacturing in high labor markets, where the labor cost is relatively insignificant to the cost of the products. It's the cheap consumer products that will always chase the cheapest labor.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/LIVING/01/17/americans.move.to.china/index.html

Also, some of those jobs are coming back to the US. Not at a rapid rate, though. The US gave some competative advantages to the rest of the world after WW2. They were down and out. The US needed them to become a viable economy to thwart communism. It worked. One of Obamas promises was to curtail these tax incentives etc. I don't see it happening.
I think Germany, France and Europe have certain forms of protectionism. Japan does too. Japan nearly wiped out our machine building industry, through illegal trade practices. They sold machinery that cost them more to produce than they sold them for. I think with cars, they sold them at cost. It cost more for one of their cars in Japan, than here.
Tom

It was originally concerning when I found out the semi conductor chip manufacturing industry left for China. It was not wage excessive as most the manufacturing process involved was automatic. I think what was wrong is in my mind the Chinese paid them to go having no basic labour advantage.

Where all segments of the north american industries actually for sale? They were not actually but the companies like national semiconductors. The Chinese just entice them to locate inside China. Eventually the rest of the real aquisition intent is fufilled.

We should pull back those companies that experience no real signifigant labour component in manufacturing of their products. They have proven they had no sense of loyalty to there own marketplace that originally allowed them to become what they did. Greed for the bottom line overcame all in my opinion. Absolutly no concern for social responsibility instead this every man for himself attitude so prevelant in north america. Used to be defined as dog eat dog. If this is an allowable part of the free enterprise thing than it is wrong.

The government should have stepped in as that area of expertise is a national asset.Or any other area where the move was just to service excess greed. Eventually we may even lose the current ability to design producs and develop them..

They could still step in and implement laws to save some things. But that is seen as government involvement. Most would take the opinion that it is better to see it all gone. As someone quoted 41,000 factories have closed up in the states since 2000. What portion of them were enticed to leave actually being very profitable and not having a labour cost issue?

This is one reason for example the chinese are able to dominate the world with large screen televison recievers. With far more items to come but only consumer goods. They are far too smart to actually sell the manufacturing interest or products to enable manufacturing of them. We were not it seems.

There can be little doubt the really rich can get much richer with time with this type of distortion. By the same token the not so rich can lose an awful lot. You are free to have virtually nothing or very little under our systems currently. It is really not even ethical but legal as things stand presently for business to desert for an enticement. I think if the chinese had come to north america and just started purchasing what they wanted may have been stopped at some point. The way it is now they pay little to entice the enity into there sphere of influence.

Some of the arguments that the product can be produced cheaper there are just a smokescreen. We were on the verge of more extensive automation to eliminate or seriously reduce the labour component when the technology sell off started. Now at some point the chinese will do it instead and their citizens will benifit.

There has been far too much playing politics rather than paying real attention to the fundementals by the disfunctional political systems. Any political system that allows what has occured with no valid proven replacement stratagy has to be deemed disfunctional to me.

Our politicians in Canada have not been much better until very reciently. They stopped a selloff of a national asset late last year. We will see much more of this up here. If your operation is sound in Canada basically and not under real threat. You cannot move it offshore just to improve the bottom line if it is already more than adaquate.

Admittedly they are creeping slowly into this area but at least they are moving. The first one was the hardest but there was no complaining and screaming. Other than by the country that thought they had picking up the asset and had it in the bag.

. I think Canadian people just realised it was the right move and simular moves have been long overdue for too long anyways. Any labour intensive manufacturing is another story as I can see the company may need the advantage.Again it should be determined that is the truth before allowing the departure.

General motors has operations in China. Buying the stock currently did not look like the best move. Yet China purchased a whack of it. They were probably not really interested in any stock valuation and if it falls they will grab far more. Even if it goes up I imagine.

They intend to own general motors of China in my opinion no matter what happens to the American portion of the company. Or position themselves to also own general motors of north america if it would prove worthwhile to do so at some point.

What is legislated to prevent this type of thing occuring? Nothing that I can think of. Plus it was nice of the government to additionaly deficit finance pouring money into general motors to reduce the cost to the chinese. Allowing bankrupcy with no dispersal of the assets value to the original stockholders or creditors.

In fact even basically cancelling those holders rights. I personally do not think the Chinese could have engineered it better themselves. We north americans may already be the laughing stock of the world or very soon could be.

Japan did not set out to dominate the world economy. The Chinese are historically smarter than the japanese. Potentially having what it takes to succeed if having the world dominating economy is what they seek. Unfortunatly the destruction that may occur in them wanting to achieve that goal or end point is already too excessive. We should make some effort to smarten up sooner than later. They are after all in the process of building up a massive infastructure to serve what they visualise.

Yes, but we shouldn't serve it to them on a Silver platter. I don't think the Chinese are any smarter. I think having a dictorial central planning, gives them an advantage. It is hard to compete when (US) companies sell to their factoires material at a much cheaper rate. A lot of US companies can even source the material for the price of the finished part sold by the Chienese.
Also, even as much as Japan protected much of its market, some of them were very inovative. Some of their products were just better. Not on price, on function and inovation. I am thinking of Fuji fishing rod guides. Mr. Fuji was a world class, I think world champion, surf caster. I think he pioneered ceramic fishing guides. Then dominated the market for several decades. I don't think the quality of his guides were matched till the early 2000's. I'd also mention Mr. Honda did some racing.
I think it quit impressive what Japan did, considering the lack of any natural resources being indiginous. China is a vast land. THey do have a lot of natural resources. Them and Russia have been buying up world resources over the past decade.
Tom

political? no, it's a technological problem. and a solution doesn't exist. nor will it ever, in my opinion. and , no offense, but nuclear power is the most federally subsidized energy industry in the nation. so, it's not really a 'free market" industry, and you and your employers are basically benefitting from state socialism. if nuclear plants had to pay for waste disposal and liability and decommissioning, they would price themselves out of the so called "free marketplace". surely you are aware of all this?

__________________
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread."

Dont forget that the Chinese are EXTREMELY patient. I dont see that in Western people.

__________________
CHILCUTT~
The secret to a long life. Is knowing when it is time to leave.

Well as a bellweather things changed substantially in the last week locally. The province in Canada is the same fundementally as a state is. Education is to undergo a 22 percent reduction in cost. Salt use for road conditions has been reduced thirty percent. Both are provincially administered.

The federal government has made several unusual announcements in the last week. Even posting statistics that to my memory have never been posted before. Only two interpretations are possible basically to me.

They either see something coming or are becoming really cautious. We have a transfer system or formula in place that did reach it's goals. This is some of the wealthy provinces revenue stream being transfered to poorer provinces. The wealthy provinces are running so high a deficit they are complaining this is no longer a reasonable option.

As for people here going back to work. That is not going to happen as the employers have thinned out too much. Larger area private sector employers have gone to India and China.

China has a developing airospace program. I have access to some of their assembly chemicals at a reasonable cost. We have a manuacturing concern in that sector in town as well. My guess is it may be gone soon unless the recent policy of not allowing important industry to leave is used.

The Canadian government for the first time I am aware of took action to stop a sellout of a national asset this winter. The only screams heard where from those of the country that thought they had it in the bag.

Normally inflation or the cost of living should have stabilized during the last year or so but is continuing to increase all the time. Wages are pretty static during this period as well. I had noticed some changes in the background occuring quietly by the governments. Whatever is going on currently is now in the open. The only thing certain is as of now even legislated changes are underway to try to get people to act more responsible for their own welfare.

I have watched this general motors thing in the states for quite a time. This one really scared me. The taxpayers capitalized a company that theretically went into a bankrupcy. The original shareholders and creditors were not allowed a shot at any asset salvage values. When the new stock was eventually issued I notice the chinese brought quite a chunk of it. Many established rules broken here were signifigant.

Why not? General motors operations in china are becoming larger and if anything happens with the parent company in the states general motors will probably land up theirs thanks to the American taxpayer. It almost looks like the american government put general motors into shape so the chinese may aquire it cheap or at least the chinese portion of the company at some point.

If it is true as posted that there have been 41,000 plant closures in America since the year 2000. A moratorium should be put into place until the government can get it's act together.. No company can leave until an evaluation takes place of the neccesity of doing so.

I am tired of the it saves on labour costs. Too many companies have taken financial enticements by China that had no labour component basically or a very small percentage of a labour component.

What a stratagy to aquire our assets the chinese have. There may even be a lineup of other countries standing in line for what is left of the pie. They simply will copy the chinese example. It appears to me to be very cost effective.

Far cheaper than actually buying or developing the companies yet down he road they become theirs. Oh many billions of dollars will flow into the north americans pockets of the few that enabled this of course. The rest of the population can go stand on the corners. There is no longer any human component consideration in the bottom lines of prosperious corporations. Greed is now the dominate factor. Since we have this every individual for themselves so well established in north america.

Ethically and morally the corporations can act the way they do. Guide lines were needed a long time ago. In Canada they are now starting to be issued. More intrusive government is not desired but if the option is to have a problem steadily worsening. What is prefferable is the question. We already waited too long to act in Canada.

Over simplification I have to wonder about. To me this whole area has been visable for a long time with no corrective formulas advanced by governments. The new type economy has a nice ring about it. Where is it? When is it going to occur?

Or it is now pretty certain it is not going to take up any signifigant slack. I really think it is a marvellous concept that we are going to come back on the old economy we gave away. At last there appears a glimmer of hope up here as the governmentis starting to do things in a different fashion. There is also no political infighting reciently about the seriousness of what lies ahead. I think our Canadian politicians have really started to get their acts together.

I have never thought the sky was falling unless the present course of events was continued. At the same time I thought there was a limit to be reached. Up here it appears the limit may have been hit or the start of signifigant changes is now underway at last. As I have repeated before that I am just a simple person so take what I post in complicated areas like these with a grain of salt. Many of my opinions,my humour and how I visualise things are unorthodox to say the least.

And way before all the stimulus, many of those US companies sold themselves out. Instead of spending money to update their own factories, they moved plants overseas or invested in other's plants overseas. Some of these other plants became their competitors. This happened in the Furniture buisness to a large extent.
Still, this is nothing new. It happened years ago. Many of the outboard boat motor manufactures outsource thier lower end motors to companies in Japan. You guesses it, they became their future competitors. Also, I think Germany benifited from all the other stimulas programs from other countires. They just didn't put out any money themselves. Now they are a bit smug about it. I do think overall they have managed their money etc. well.
Tom

http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110119/ts_yblog_thelookout/is-decline-in-workers-power-behind-slow-job-growth

__________________
MBlovr
'59 180 Dad's original
'59 180 Dad's 2nd one
'67 250SE Dad's last one
'59 220 SE My first one
'62 220SE Coupe second one
'89 190E 2.6 5spd third one
'06 E350 4matic (sold)
'10 E350 4matic

Maybe US companies are finally learning how to control their labor cost?

Nah they are just not sure its going to last, if this year proves to be good they will start hiring more.

__________________
2006 CL500
2009 C300 4matic
1969 280SE
2023 Ram 1500
2007 Tiara 3200

To a degree, this is true.

Look at the example of Finland:

Disadvantages:
NO ONE speaks, studies, reads, writes or cares about Finnish except the Finns and the Youpers. So everyone learns at least one other language.

Resources are limited

Climate is truly crappy, which limits building, tourism

Location next to Russian has not given them a real friendly feeling these past 100 years. They were invaded twice.
-----------

Solution:

Develop a cultural attitude, which a Finn described to me as: Learn and work, live with less or die.

Teach everyone at LEAST one other language to the point where they can use it to work or get work. many learn English, Russian and or German.

Develop highly skilled workers. Finnish training is such that many Finns have technical hobbies, like our guys who build the turbo 617s.

Have a government with an army but which spends less because people "pick up after themselves." There is a saying " only children need janitors." It's the idea that if you clean after yourself and do not waste, you will have what you need. Finns do join UN causes as well.

Have a government with a balanced budget

Exploit natural resources wisely and find innovative ways to earn money, not like the countries where people just charge fees, because they can, then squeal when the same is done to them.

BTW they do take care of their elderly pretty well. Retirement age is 65

__________________
Strelnik
Invest in America: Buy a Congressman!

1950 170SD
1951 Citroen 11BN
1953 Citroen 11BNF limo
1953 220a project
1959 180D
1960 190D
1960 Borgward Isabella TS 2dr
1983 240D daily driver
1983 380SL
1990 350SDL daily driver alt
3 x Citroen DS21M, down from 5
3 x Citroen 2CV, down from 6