The problems you are referring to SJH are cultural and have their roots far earlier than CC. Specifically in a K-12 educational system that flushed "standards" and "responsibility" down the toilet of psychobabble success decades ago. Unfortunately there is no easy fix as you can't simply change a culture of lazyness and irresponsibility.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

That is what I have been saying from the beginning of this thread.

I specifically said I believe grades 1 through 5 are more important than college.

Complete agreement. In the original post I stated why I wrote this -

1. Vanity
2. Contributing to change
3. For others who sensed what was occurring but couldn't articulate it.

With the order of importance being 3-2-1

I look at Great Britain and see where we are going. We might be able to stop it. It seems unlikely.

Good to hear from you Peter.

--

Stuart

My daughter goes to a pretty big multi-ethnic inner city high school (3500 students or so). I know her skills and I know her ranking in her class. I'd say it has to be at least the top 20% if not more She is getting a far better high school education than I got at a well funded suburban high school in NY state in the 60's and 70's.

I agree however, that there are problems at the elementary school level. Part of the problem I see at that level is a complete abandonment of the practice of rote memorization.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

A few years ago I was at one the meetings periodically organized by educational bureaucrats to improve higher education. This particular one was made up of representatives from all of Colorado's universities and colleges and required that we meet in groups to come up with lists of skills students needed in high school to excel in the fields that we teach in college. (as if, prior to the meeting, high school educators were ignorant of these things). After we were charged by the former senator who was now the head of the Colorado Department of Higher Education, a science professor with a heavy European accent and huge shock of hair stood up and said that rather than wasting our whole day writing down the obvious, we should pursue a simpler and much more effective plan of simply replacing the parents of failing students with better parents.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I'm still not sure I understand the intent of memory exercises, I doubt that I still remember anything that I was forced to memorize in early elementary school. I do remember refusing to memorize anything that I thought was worthless by the time I was in 4th or 5th grade. I specifically remember failing a test because I refused to memorize the prologue to The Canterbury Tales. That was about the time that I figured out that I could ignore all the nonsense and still get by just learning the content that I though was worth paying attention to. What were they going to do, prevent me from graduating from elementary school?

Actually, if it were me that's exactly what I would have done. I'd guess you were one of the lucky ones, bright enough to manage to rescue your future when your got older despite your ignorance and lazyness when younger. Many of your contemporaries I'd venture to suggest were just as dumb but not as fortunate.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

In what way?

I agree. I'm not a teacher but get to spend quite a bit of time in various k-8th grade classrooms in 14 different schools. It's not an education, it's just herding cats, crowd control, psychobabble etc.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Not sure about memorizing the prologue to Canterbury Tales. Did you memorize your multiplication tables and the parts of speech?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I just figured out how to work the system, I could do the 80% of the work I cared about perfectly and ignore the other 20%; I just ignored everything that I thought was pointless. I didn't need to be an A student in primary or secondary school, so I just didn't bother putting in any more effort than required to get Bs.

My question was, what do 6 to 12 year olds gain from memorizing rote information? I just don't see the point, anyone can memorize anything long enough to take a test if they put in a little effort; but why?

My job is to take care of my three boys and wife; my work is whatever pays the bills so I can do my job.

My two youngest are both at least one grade level ahead, and one is two levels ahead. They play chess and soccer. They have led the school to become the top chess elementary school in the Palm Beach county, and I see bright futures for them because my wife and I put a very high priority on all three of their educations, both in school and out. Any parent which does not place a high priority on this is making us as a nation poorer and in the end I and my sons will be paying for those kids meals and "needs" through increased socialist programs for the entirety of my and their lives. It's a choice as a parent, and those who fail to make the right choice burden those who do, yet we as a society place the burden on those that make the right choice and forgive those that make the wrong one. Until this changes, the poor decision-makers will continue to drag everyone down in the spiral of failure.

Higher level classes--it's possible for a student at her school to take pre-calculus or calculus after having taken Geometry, Algebra I and II and Trigonometry. More rigorous classes--her Lit classes have required more and better books than my school required. Her AP US History was far more demanding and comprehensive than what I took. Her school offers AP Physics, Biology and Chemistry. The Speech program at her school is very demanding and nationally ranked. Speech wasn't even offered at my school. There's a Constitutional Law team at her school--no such thing at my school. The Theater program puts on two first rate productions every year. They can take college courses at the high school or at local college campuses.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I'm sure I must have memorized them long enough to pass the test, but that's not really learning anything. I'm sure I couldn't recite multiplication tables today, but I certainly can do mental arithmetic as well as anyone. I don't think I can explain the specific functions of each part of speech, but I can usually construct a proper sentence (because it sounds correct). IMO, learning has more to do with pattern recognition than memorization. It makes me crazy when my daughter's math teachers try to teach algebra based on rules; that's not how math works, once you understand the principles you don't need the rules.

Because being able to add, subtract, multiply and divide quickly in your head without resorting to a calculator makes it easier to focus on higher level mathematical analysis. And knowing the parts of speech and their relationships to each other makes critical construction and analysis of written work easier.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

My daughter's school district (douglas county) is similar; they have more resources than I ever had in high school and the students have a lot more going on than most of the knuckleheads I went to high school with.

Also, one of the organization I frequently consult with have been in the process of hiring new college/university graduates for the last several years. They tend to hire top 5-10% graduates from good schools and pay them pretty well; some of these kids are very impressive, 20-25 year old who know exactly what they are doing, why they are doing it, and what they want to be doing in 10 years. They make me feel like I wasted 10 years of my life screwing around before I finally got serious about my career in my late 20s.

But you don't get there by memorization, I least that's not how I was ever able to do it. Once you understand it, you don't have to memorize it. Memorization always seemed like the brute force way of "learning" things that you didn't really understand. I don't memorize the steps necessary in turning a pair of skis or riding a bicycle, but I can do those things pretty well. My kids make fun of me because I cannot verbally tell them how to spell fairly simple words, but I can type or write those works without thinking about them. My daughter probably can't tell you the specific finger positions on any instrument she plays for a specific note, but if you show her the music she can play it. Maybe I just have a "different" learning style.