Yes. Even the Hebrews, whose cultural norms were far more draconian than the New Testament Christians, allowed women to work outside the home (Proverbs 31:24), own property (Proverbs 31:16) and be head of a household (inasmuch as there was no husband to fill that role). Refusing to reproduce would be unusual for anyone of that time as children were almost essential for labor and security in old age. I'm not even sure how she would do that as contraception was iffy at best. Abortion was frowned upon by almost every civilization at that time.

For people who do not understand the former, He included the latter.

Not at all. Virtually every religious movement (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu) has been found guilty of arbitrarily mistranslating Scripture to keep various groups in check. Women were used, against the wishes of God, as chattel and breeding stock. However, to say that this was always the case is to assume that the Bible is some sort of day to day journal, not a timeline that mostly highlights the major events in the Jewish and, later, Christian faith.

There's the rub.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I was addressing that comment to srj. Curious as to whether he was willing to say that the subservience of women in the Bible is wrong.
I don't see how the subservience of women is a matter of translation. It was widespread in the Middle East and endorsed by virtually all Middle Eastern religions as the will of God and deeply engrained in their scriptures.

I'm basically inquiring as to whether bible believers are willing to be straight up and say "I disagree with women lacking equal rights in the family and society and church , just like I disagree with the biblical view that rebellious teenagers and homosexuals. should be executed." Seems to me like there is some equivocation going on.

Jewish law really doesn't say anything about abortions.

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Let me try again.
There is both equally among the sexes, and there is a measure of submission.
The Church submits to God.
Men submit to their rulers in the Church.
Wives submit to their husbands.
Children submit to their parents.
Everyone submits to the government over them.
In God's economy, all this is under the mantle of love.
As far as their standing before God, men and women are essentially equals, i.e equal in substance.

__________________
1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

But husbands don't submit to their wives, or did you forget to include that in the daisy chain of submission?

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You're a daisy if you do.
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84 Euro 240D 4spd. 220.5k sold
04 Honda Element AWD
1985 F150 XLT 4x4, 351W with 270k miles, hay hauler
1997 Suzuki Sidekick 4x4
1993 Toyota 4wd Pickup 226K and counting

Does God ever get tired of just dealing with servants and yearn for equals?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

I wish he would come down to earth and tell us.

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow

kerry,

Though I can see why you'd think otherwise my comment was not predominantly directed at your remark but it was somewhat so.

I broke your comment into two pieces. I don't have much to say about the second half of your remark. I understand your frequent and reasonable comments about the behavior of some, possibly many practicing Christians throughout time.

First comment. You always have to look at behavior within context. It's quite popular today (maybe always has been) to look at a different era and say how barbarous. 100 years or 500 years from now people will look at us and say the same thing.

I don't know enough abough OT times and the behavior of other cultures of the time to say much. But any evaluation must be in comparison to them.

However, the NT is remarkable in terms of the roles, authority and importance given to women.

Many women played prominant roles in the NT. Martha, the three Marys, the women Paul mentions in many of his epistle's etc. Also much of the postive changes in society that have benefitted all, women as well of course have been lead by Judeo-Christian values and nations.

Many, many, many of Jesus' stories involve women in prominent roles; his Mother, the women by the well, the women with the issue of blood, the first to find the tomb empty, the resurrection of Lazarus, etc.

Be well.

.

So are you happy saying that wives submitting to their husbands is a bad idea?

__________________
1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13

Ahh!

Well if I separate the question from the editorializing I'll see if I have any light to share.

Two cultures meet, there are 4 options:

1. Assimilation
2. Extermination
3. Accomodation
4. Amalgamation

An analysis of how Protestant European's treated the indigenous people of NA from the middle of the last millenia forward must be compared to every other comparable encounter at that time.

The comment on physical diesease is superfulous. Folks swap organic matter and everyone experiences the consequences. The story of the Cherokees and pox filled blankets is highly questionable. Syphilis came to Europe form NA.

The experience of NA Indians with Eurpeans is tragic but I strongly suspect much better than other similar encounters indigenous people had at the time.

Yes, I do believe the message of Jesus freed the natives from bondage to darkness.

Yes I believe Western culture (warts and all) was/is vastly superior to their existing culture.

Looking up the term I find it is part of the dribble of the '60s in an area (much of the humanities) that I have such low regard for that I have to make an effort to not sneer.

That's me. Quasi-intelelctuals, sitting around in faciliites provided by others who are industrious, spewing any arbitrary notion they want, for whatever reason they want, WITH NO OBJECTIVE BASIS FOR EVALUATION.

They may as well sit in a room and compare flatulence for the relevance that the vast majority of it possesses.

But agin. That's just me.

.

If the act is willful why isn't it free will.

I approach a master craftsmen. Sir, will you teach me. Yes, if you submit to my authority.

QED

.

How can the Creator yearn for anything? How can mere creatures aspire to be equal with God?

Actually your question is quite similar to what is attributed to Lucifer in his rebellion.

__________________
1982 300SD " Wotan" ..On the road as of Jan 8, 2007 with Historic Tags

Point being? It wasn't as bad as others doesn't make it good, does it?

As defined by the believers.

And that gives you the right to do with them as was done?

__________________
01 Ford Excursion Powerstroke
99 E300 Turbodiesel
91 Vette with 383 motor
05 Polaris Sportsman 800 EFI
06 Polaris Sportsman 500 EFI
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Red
03 SeaDoo GTX SC Yellow
04 Tailgator 21 ft Toy Hauler
11 Harley Davidson 883 SuperLow