Round and round with the school... - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

jplinville · #31 04-17-2012, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobK

Nice, simple idea. Sounds good but has issues. Let's try the idea in another setting. You work in a factory. You are paid based on how many of a product you produce each day that passes inspection. Problem is, you have NO control over the quality of the raw or semi finished parts comming in that you assemble your product from. Sometimes they are all up to incoming specs. Sometimes they are not and you are supposed to fix the issues and then assemble the product. Sometimes there is just no way they incoming parts will function. Oh, and you really are not allowed to discard any. Maybe you can convince the boss to reroute one or two back to the previous step to get them fixed, but you have to spend a lot of your time doing that and still must meet quota everyday to get your pay.
That's the reality of pay for performance for teachers. Can the program be made to work properly? Yes, if the system is designed properly at a high (state) level. Have to redefine what "performance" really is. Here is a start on how to really make it work. At the end of every year (or whenever a child enters the state), you run them through a battery of solid, proven, standardized tests. This is your baseline. Now give them to the proper teacher. If he is reading on a second grade level but is in the 5th grade, we get him in a reading rescue type class to help get the reading up to level. Kid is not going to do well with other 5th grade studies if he can't read on that level. Also we find out why not reading on or above level. Eyesight, dyslexic, bad teachers in previous state?

At end of year, test children again. measure the progress they have made. Find out if anaything held them back during the year. Up half the night each night dealing with drunken parents, babysitting younger siblings, the list of what these kids deal with is horrible. Do a realistic assessment of the kids' progress under particular teacher. Then decide merit pay raise based on overall progress and individual progress. Trouble is, all of that takes time and effort. teachers don't always have the time and administrators don't always want to make the effort. Too easy to just say "we are going to buy the latest new thing program and it will fix all of our problems". Think "the new math", and listem for something called "Springboard", one of the most inflexible programs to come down the pike.

My wife is a 6th grade language arts teacher. She goes nuts trying to teach the kids what they actually need to know (how to write) while using all these programs dejour.

Nice way to put it...very clear.

The problem isn't that my child is behind in language arts...it's that there have been so many teachers in the class, that proper records haven't been kept, a solid class outline hasn't been followed, and clear instructions for the children wasn't given between all the teachers in this one class. Q2 had 37 entries in the progress book, giving him an average of a high B. Q3 only had 14 entries, giving him an average lower than previous. The low average was caused by a few low grades, that brought the average down. Q3 is where there were a large number of different teachers in the class.

Because of the above, his grade looks poor, compared to what he usually does.

It's maddening to me, as the parent, because the low number of progress book entries and a few low grades gives him a low average in the class for that particular quarter.

If done properly, now that I've been told there is a full time teacher in the class now, continuity and increased graded work will bring his average back to where it needs to be.

As I explained to the principal...The law of averages has caused many students in the class to have low grades for Q3. Basically...they were setting the kids of for a failure.

pj67coll · #32 04-17-2012, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

The average teacher salary in the district is $55,000 per year, which is hardly peanuts.

I disagree. I think it is peanuts especially considering what teachers have to put up with. And I don't just mean the brats but the parents as well. But as long as America continues to pay peanuts and follow a failed model of social engineering in its' schools nothing will improve.

Quote:

The nice thing about this state is that if I pull my son and put him in a charter school, the district is responsible to pay for the tuition.

I think that's a particularly stupid way of doing things but typical of the malaise affecting public education. Be that as it may that might be your best course of action for your son in this case.

- Peter.

jplinville · #33 04-17-2012, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pj67coll

I disagree. I think it is peanuts especially considering what teachers have to put up with. And I don't just mean the brats but the parents as well. But as long as America continues to pay peanuts and follow a failed model of social engineering in its' schools nothing will improve.

I think that's a particularly stupid way of doing things but typical of the malaise affecting public education. Be that as it may that might be your best course of action for your son in this case.

- Peter.

When the average household income in the district is much less...it's a lot of money. The average teacher make about double what the income is around here.

Brian Carlton · #34 04-17-2012, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

I'm building up a team of squeaky wheels to become thorns to the district, demanding proper education for our kids.

The only thing you might accomplish is a sense of personal satisfaction. There won't be any change in procedures or practices regarding the education of your kids. Nobody is going to demand that a specific teacher "perform better" or "educate your kids better" than they currently do.

In reality, without any measurement of teacher performance, your demands are hollow.

Of course, the school board is elected...........so, you (with your cohorts) have the option of tossing them out and electing a different moron who won't accomplish anything.

pj67coll · #35 04-17-2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

When the average household income in the district is much less...it's a lot of money. The average teacher make about double what the income is around here.

That would imply the average income is about 27K where you are. That's even lower than Phoenix, which seems incomprehensible to me given the nature of the toilet into which the economy here has been flushed. However in any event judging if a salary is peanuts or not peanuts based merely on equating it to the surrounding average is not the whole story. All teachers will have college degrees to repay so will likely be starting out with a handicap that many others might not have.

In addition to that just saying that a salarys is a bit higher than the average does not mean it's good in relation to the job that must be done and the expected results. But then that goes to the whole issue of the undervaluing of education the US.

I'd be surprised if there was any chance of an improvement n the distirct either I might add, given that they have to subsidise their compettition (charters) while dealing with declining budgets.

- Peter.

- Peter.

elchivito · #36 04-17-2012, 02:50 PM

I'd be interested in hearing more about how public schools are responsible for footing the bill to send a kid to a charter. I suspect it's more a matter of the state's average daily attendance payments following the child to whatever school he attends, which makes sense. This makes the charter schools essentially public.

I don't have a problem with the concept of outcome based pay for educators. It's the implementation that always seems to be the problem. For those who aren't professionally involved in education it often seems real simple. Run the schools like businesses. The problem is, the product of that business (graduates) is human, and the supply and quality of raw materials (students enrolling in a particular school) can't be controlled like it can with widgets.

jplinville · #37 04-17-2012, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

I'd be interested in hearing more about how public schools are responsible for footing the bill to send a kid to a charter. I suspect it's more a matter of the state's average daily attendance payments following the child to whatever school he attends, which makes sense. This makes the charter schools essentially public.

I don't have a problem with the concept of outcome based pay for educators. It's the implementation that always seems to be the problem. For those who aren't professionally involved in education it often seems real simple. Run the schools like businesses. The problem is, the product of that business (graduates) is human, and the supply and quality of raw materials (students enrolling in a particular school) can't be controlled like it can with widgets.

The state subsidy for education is taken from the district and given to the charter school. in addition, the money that is spent on each child, as an average, from the district that is generated by local taxes is also sent to the charter school. Each student the district loses to a charter school is less money the district gets as a whole.

jplinville · #38 06-07-2012, 09:22 AM

Well...things changed for this last 9 weeks. The school was quite diligent in keeping me abreast of things, and even held weekly phone conferences with the guidance counselor. It's amazing what happens when you become a thorn in the eye of the school board!!

My son completed this 9 weeks with all A's and one B. My 16 year old daughter finished the year with 4 A's and 3 B's, and my eldest child graduated her high school in Ohio with A's and B's as well.

The Clk Man · #39 06-07-2012, 12:00 PM

I wonder if teachers really care. When my youngest son started first grade, his teacher called us into a meeting and told us that our son had developmental problems and might be autistic. I told the teacher to get off of her lazy ass and make my son speak up. He was an A-B student all the way through HS. It's easy to label a kids as slow when the teachers don't want to make the effort.

jplinville · #40 06-07-2012, 12:36 PM

I agree, Robert.

I forgot to add that the school is taking my son out of the basic math and science courses and putting him in the higher level advanced courses.

The classes are smaller and the teachers really teach the topic, not the test.

SwampYankee · #41 06-07-2012, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

I agree, Robert.

I forgot to add that the school is taking my son out of the basic math and science courses and putting him in the higher level advanced courses.

The classes are smaller and the teachers really teach the topic, not the test.

Sounds like your diligence has paid off, congrats!

Our diligence hasn't proven to be quite as fruitful. My 8th grade son is still having issues with his math teacher (as are a dozen or so other kids in his class). 15 minutes with my math teacher/professor FIL and he's up to speed for a week's-worth of lessons and moved a chapter ahead

, although I'm guessing he just tunes her out by this point. She quizzes and tests them on things she hasn't covered, answers questions in class with "you should have paid attention the first time" (her after school extra-help sessions are essentially the same), gives no partial credit (I didn't really have an issue with that until my FIL said he always gave partial credit in h.s. and college as well as showed them where the mistake was made).

Meetings have been a waste of time as they always turn towards my son's well-known (dis)organization skills in other classes, even though we're not having issues in his other classes. There's always an excuse from either the teacher, VP, P, guidance counselor for anything we bring up. We've pretty much written off this year in math and have already gotten a waiver form in hand should they recommend he be moved down a level.

I've seen him go from loving math to despising it thanks to one teacher. It would appear that our administration lacks the testicular fortitude to deal with problems with an educator. Sometimes I wish I could be less respectful (read more of an @$$hole) in a meeting, but I pretty much feel like all these meetings have done is increase the size of the bulls-eye on my son's back.

tonkovich · #42 06-07-2012, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

Sounds like your diligence has paid off, congrats!

Our diligence hasn't proven to be quite as fruitful. My 8th grade son is still having issues with his math teacher (as are a dozen or so other kids in his class). 15 minutes with my math teacher/professor FIL and he's up to speed for a week's-worth of lessons and moved a chapter ahead

, although I'm guessing he just tunes her out by this point. She quizzes and tests them on things she hasn't covered, answers questions in class with "you should have paid attention the first time" (her after school extra-help sessions are essentially the same), gives no partial credit (I didn't really have an issue with that until my FIL said he always gave partial credit in h.s. and college as well as showed them where the mistake was made).

Meetings have been a waste of time as they always turn towards my son's well-known (dis)organization skills in other classes, even though we're not having issues in his other classes. There's always an excuse from either the teacher, VP, P, guidance counselor for anything we bring up. We've pretty much written off this year in math and have already gotten a waiver form in hand should they recommend he be moved down a level.

I've seen him go from loving math to despising it thanks to one teacher. It would appear that our administration lacks the testicular fortitude to deal with problems with an educator. Sometimes I wish I could be less respectful (read more of an @$$hole) in a meeting, but I pretty much feel like all these meetings have done is increase the size of the bulls-eye on my son's back.

wow. she sounds like a real nightmare.

but it does go both ways. we (meaning my classmates and i , who started school in 1967) would never think of acting up in class, be it in kindergarten or in the last year of high school. we respected teachers - even the few bad ones - because parents told us that, well, teachers were their surrogates. it was explained to me, from day one, by my parents, that were i to get in trouble in school, much worse punishment would await me at home. i made sure to never find out how true that threat was. today, i doubt that message is being conveyed to a lot of kids. and while i frown on the corporal punishment employed by my parents, i do think that there has to be some linking of actions and consequences early on, so the little rugrats figure it out.

and no, i don't think things in general were necessarily better, overall, back then, but i do think courtesy and respect, however, were certainly evident in the classroom.

by the way, i could get a teaching job tomorrow - was offered one 20 + years ago. but Los Angeles Unified was a mess then, and is even worse now.

no thanks.

jplinville · #43 06-07-2012, 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampYankee

Sounds like your diligence has paid off, congrats!

Our diligence hasn't proven to be quite as fruitful. My 8th grade son is still having issues with his math teacher (as are a dozen or so other kids in his class). 15 minutes with my math teacher/professor FIL and he's up to speed for a week's-worth of lessons and moved a chapter ahead

, although I'm guessing he just tunes her out by this point. She quizzes and tests them on things she hasn't covered, answers questions in class with "you should have paid attention the first time" (her after school extra-help sessions are essentially the same), gives no partial credit (I didn't really have an issue with that until my FIL said he always gave partial credit in h.s. and college as well as showed them where the mistake was made).

Meetings have been a waste of time as they always turn towards my son's well-known (dis)organization skills in other classes, even though we're not having issues in his other classes. There's always an excuse from either the teacher, VP, P, guidance counselor for anything we bring up. We've pretty much written off this year in math and have already gotten a waiver form in hand should they recommend he be moved down a level.

I've seen him go from loving math to despising it thanks to one teacher. It would appear that our administration lacks the testicular fortitude to deal with problems with an educator. Sometimes I wish I could be less respectful (read more of an @$$hole) in a meeting, but I pretty much feel like all these meetings have done is increase the size of the bulls-eye on my son's back.

Being an @$$hole in situations like this is my forte. While my son has shown the school that he's smarter than what they thought, it's painted a target on his back as well. I've had to deal with the VP on 8 separate occasions this last nine weeks, due to her trying to lay blame on him for stupid things like throwing papers and running in the halls. Each time, other kids and teachers came up and stated that it wasn't my kid that did it. Each time, I've told her that my son would not be serving her detentions...and each time it's ended with a meeting via phone call with the P. I told the P that my son won't be their target next year, because I'm taking things to the board if it continues to happen.

SwampYankee · #44 06-08-2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tonkovich

wow. she sounds like a real nightmare.

but it does go both ways. we (meaning my classmates and i , who started school in 1967) would never think of acting up in class, be it in kindergarten or in the last year of high school. we respected teachers - even the few bad ones - because parents told us that, well, teachers were their surrogates. it was explained to me, from day one, by my parents, that were i to get in trouble in school, much worse punishment would await me at home. i made sure to never find out how true that threat was. today, i doubt that message is being conveyed to a lot of kids. and while i frown on the corporal punishment employed by my parents, i do think that there has to be some linking of actions and consequences early on, so the little rugrats figure it out.

and no, i don't think things in general were necessarily better, overall, back then, but i do think courtesy and respect, however, were certainly evident in the classroom.

by the way, i could get a teaching job tomorrow - was offered one 20 + years ago. but Los Angeles Unified was a mess then, and is even worse now.

no thanks.

Oh, I know it goes both ways. The stories I've heard from my in-laws (both teachers) about kids in their classes that are mind-boggling. I knew whatever punishment I got in school would pale in comparison to what I got at home (I was about 10 years behind you). And most of the time it wasn't the potential smack on the rear or stern talking to by father but disappointing my mother that was a stronger deterrent.

We've been lucky that behavior has never been an issue with any of our kids, especially given their...exuberance...at home. In fact, each and every teacher and administrator has told us that my oldest is very quiet and respectful in class and is very smart but he's an organizational mess and needs to get involved more in the classroom (unfortunately he gets all of that from me

). Something I don't deny. Almost to a T, comments on progress reports and report cards are "Does very well on tests. Grade due to missing assignments. Needs to participate more in class." Often missing homework assignments can be found buried in the bottom of his backpack in a crumpled mess. Once a week we sit him down at the kitchen table to clean it out and to find all of the things we were supposed to sign earlier in the week.

At some point he's got to start taking responsibility for his actions, so we've let him sink a little bit this year. It appears that we won't be able to do that next year. We're hoping that if we can get him straightened out (with organization and study habits) in 9th grade it will carry him through H.S. and beyond, wherever that may be.

elchivito · #45 06-08-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jplinville

The state subsidy for education is taken from the district and given to the charter school. in addition, the money that is spent on each child, as an average, from the district that is generated by local taxes is also sent to the charter school. Each student the district loses to a charter school is less money the district gets as a whole.

That what I said. The money follows the kid. When the district loses a kid, it loses far more money that it would actually spend on just that one kid.