Holocaust museum/memorial - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

chilcutt · #16 05-21-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

If you gentlemen can't understand the difference between the Holocaust - the deliberate systemic murder of over 6 million people over a 4 year period, not counting the other tens of millions that died during WWII, with the clear intent on the part of those running the "final solution" to wipe an entire ethnic group from the face of the earth - and the wars and other atrocities that occurred because of the encroachment and resulting conflict of one civilization upon another, over a period of four centuries....

While you have a fair argument..in some aspects, coining a phrase like 'because of the encroachment and resulting conflict of one civilisation upon another', may help you put this in a neat, tiny little clean package.

However you want to wash it, doesnt sit well in my stomach though.
Anymore than the GOP slogan..'Family values'.

There was plenty of 'Clear Intent' to wipe out the NA's, and there was plenty slaughter that did occur.

elchivito · #17 05-21-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I am trying to understand this...What gives, and how is this fair?

You should read 1491. It offers a refreshing perspective on the issue, somewhere between the whitewash we were given in school and the polar opposite white guilt view. With (essentially useless) undergrad and graduate studies in SW Anthropology, a dozen years residence on an AZ reservation and marriage into a traditional indian family, I have some interest and experience with the subject. In addition, my family's properties were acquired from their native owners through mutual agreement (fair or unfair is debatable) generations ago. My original interest in archaeology came from digging up pots as a kid. I can't do anything to change the past, and don't feel guilty about it.
I don't believe your comparison to the holocaust is fair. The holocaust was a single instance attempt to exterminate an entire ethnicity directed essentially by a madman and his followers. Jews were blamed for all that was wrong in europe, and their destruction was seen as essential to non-jewish survival. Indians, on the other hand, were simply in the way of an expansionist ideology. While the "only good indian is a dead indian" philosophy was promoted by some, it was never an over-arching philosophy. There are many memorials to indian slaughter as stated above. You just have to look for them.
What's unfortunate is the fact that for most Americans, out of sight is out of mind. Most of them have never met a native American beyond the "my great great great great gradma's uncle's sister's mother was a Cherokee princess" types. Holocaust news makes the front page. Memorial Pow-Wows if they make the papers at all are usually on the travel pages.
They're still here, their current population is only about 5 million, but is growing at over 25% from census to census, equal to the growth of latinos and triple overall U.S. population growth and remarkably, about 60% are still full blooded.

retmil46 · #18 05-21-2012, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

You should read 1491. It offers a refreshing perspective on the issue, somewhere between the whitewash we were given in school and the polar opposite white guilt view. With (essentially useless) undergrad and graduate studies in SW Anthropology, a dozen years residence on an AZ reservation and marriage into a traditional indian family, I have some interest and experience with the subject. In addition, my family's properties were acquired from their native owners through mutual agreement (fair or unfair is debatable) generations ago. My original interest in archaeology came from digging up pots as a kid. I can't do anything to change the past, and don't feel guilty about it.
I don't believe your comparison to the holocaust is fair. The holocaust was a single instance attempt to exterminate an entire ethnicity directed essentially by a madman and his followers. Jews were blamed for all that was wrong in europe, and their destruction was seen as essential to non-jewish survival. Indians, on the other hand, were simply in the way of an expansionist ideology. While the "only good indian is a dead indian" philosophy was promoted by some, it was never an over-arching philosophy. There are many memorials to indian slaughter as stated above. You just have to look for them.
What's unfortunate is the fact that for most Americans, out of sight is out of mind. Most of them have never met a native American beyond the "my great great great great gradma's uncle's sister's mother was a Cherokee princess" types. Holocaust news makes the front page. Memorial Pow-Wows if they make the papers at all are usually on the travel pages.
They're still here, their current population is only about 5 million, but is growing at over 25% from census to census, equal to the growth of latinos and triple overall U.S. population growth and remarkably, about 60% are still full blooded.

Well said.

pj67coll · #19 05-21-2012, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

When the Europeans came to America, the 500 nations included a population of over 60 million people.

How do they know?

- Peter.

chilcutt · #20 05-21-2012, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

You should read 1491. It offers a refreshing perspective on the issue, somewhere between the whitewash we were given in school and the polar opposite white guilt view. With (essentially useless) undergrad and graduate studies in SW Anthropology, a dozen years residence on an AZ reservation and marriage into a traditional indian family, I have some interest and experience with the subject. In addition, my family's properties were acquired from their native owners through mutual agreement (fair or unfair is debatable) generations ago. My original interest in archaeology came from digging up pots as a kid. I can't do anything to change the past, and don't feel guilty about it.
I don't believe your comparison to the holocaust is fair. The holocaust was a single instance attempt to exterminate an entire ethnicity directed essentially by a madman and his followers. Jews were blamed for all that was wrong in europe, and their destruction was seen as essential to non-jewish survival. Indians, on the other hand, were simply in the way of an expansionist ideology. While the "only good indian is a dead indian" philosophy was promoted by some, it was never an over-arching philosophy. There are many memorials to indian slaughter as stated above. You just have to look for them.
What's unfortunate is the fact that for most Americans, out of sight is out of mind. Most of them have never met a native American beyond the "my great great great great gradma's uncle's sister's mother was a Cherokee princess" types. Holocaust news makes the front page. Memorial Pow-Wows if they make the papers at all are usually on the travel pages.
They're still here, their current population is only about 5 million, but is growing at over 25% from census to census, equal to the growth of latinos and triple overall U.S. population growth and remarkably, about 60% are still full blooded.

I will as you suggest..read '1491'.
Your description of this topic is fair and balanced. Thank you for such.
I am also delighted, and encouraged that the population is now 5 mill, as opposed to 800,000.
I read recently that births in the U.S. among the Brown skin,Red skin, Asian's are multiplying faster than Anglo's..for this I am happy.

All these people have to do is wait it out, and the land will one day be returned to them.

Yippee !

mgburg · #21 05-21-2012, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I am pretty sure the remaining peoples would be kind enough to name a football/baseball team after the whites, if that were to occur.

We tried re-naming a football stadium, in La Crosse, after a short, WHITE, fat balding gentleman named Roger Harring, but the local VFWs and other Vet groups didn't want it to happen...Veterans Memorial Stadium is the way it had to stay and be labeled (some city "land donation" language eons back might have had something to do with that...).

Regardless, as announcers and typists in the various local media are prone to do, they've been using "Roger Harring" & "Veterans Memorial" in reference to same said Stadium.

No one has died...
A few drunks will mumble...

Life moves on because in the whole scheme of life...it's a few letters and memories that not a lot of folks care to get too bent over about...

It's not oxygen...let's move on...

chilcutt · #22 05-21-2012, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mgburg

We tried re-naming a football stadium, in La Crosse, after a short, WHITE, fat balding gentleman named Roger Harring, but the local VFWs and other Vet groups didn't want it to happen...Veterans Memorial Stadium is the way it had to stay and be labeled (some city "land donation" language eons back might have had something to do with that...).

Regardless, as announcers and typists in the various local media are prone to do, they've been using "Roger Harring" & "Veterans Memorial" in reference to same said Stadium.

No one has died...
A few drunks will mumble...

Life moves on because in the whole scheme of life...it's a few letters and memories that not a lot of folks care to get too bent over about...

It's not oxygen...let's move on...

LOL, well at least they tried.

JB3 · #23 05-21-2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I will as you suggest..read '1491'.
Your description of this topic is fair and balanced. Thank you for such.
I am also delighted, and encouraged that the population is now 5 mill, as opposed to 800,000.
I read recently that births in the U.S. among the Brown skin,Red skin, Asian's are multiplying faster than Anglo's..for this I am happy.

All these people have to do is wait it out, and the land will one day be returned to them.

Yippee !

you will find this book extremely interesting. For me it was a page turner, couldn't put it down.

chilcutt · #24 05-21-2012, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

you will find this book extremely interesting. For me it was a page turner, couldn't put it down.

Any time I can educate myself on a subject that puzzles me, I am a better person for it.
I will need to order this book. Do you know the author/publisher?

JB3 · #25 05-21-2012, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

Any time I can educate myself on a subject that puzzles me, I am a better person for it.
I will need to order this book. Do you know the author/publisher?

Charles Mann,

heres an amazon link-

Amazon.com: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (9781400040063): Charles C. Mann: Books

chilcutt · #26 05-21-2012, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dropnosky

Charles Mann,

heres an amazon link-

Amazon.com: 1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus (9781400040063): Charles C. Mann: Books

Most excellant. You rock dropnosky.
Thank you.

Looks like I will order 1493 as well. I want to know more about the man named Legazpi.

aklim · #27 05-21-2012, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I appreciate your transparency, and your honesty.
The monsters that destroyed helpless Jews thoroughly discust me, and their are unimaginable to a rational, sane mind.

The Native American's were IMHO , treated no better, and the numbers slaughtered were higher than the 6,000,000 that were murdered by the Nazi's.

Still, among some segments in society, this atrocity is kept hush, hush.

People are the monster. It is just caged up most of the time. We all have the potential to be another Hitler. We just have to be given the right prompting.

2 things come to mind. 1. Stalin was pretty high up, number wise. 2. 6 million is pretty small had they been allowed to continue.

WWII is a lot closer to us with pictures and what not. What happened to the NA population was farther back and there were not as good records kept.

LaRondo · #28 05-21-2012, 06:04 PM

The essence in Chillcutt's question, if I understand correctly:

Why Holocaust Museums in the US (anybody know how many?) albeit it took place on the European continent.
While on the other hand the "vanishing" of Native American Indians did take place on the North American continent and is not anywhere close to the foreground in it's presentation.

People in this country are extremely partial to the adaptation of Shoah. It's an educational matter.

What do both of these historical developments have in common? Manipulated data.

cmac2012 · #29 05-21-2012, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

If you gentlemen can't understand the difference between the Holocaust - the deliberate systemic murder of over 6 million people over a 4 year period, not counting the other tens of millions that died during WWII, with the clear intent on the part of those running the "final solution" to wipe an entire ethnic group from the face of the earth - and the wars and other atrocities that occurred because of the encroachment and resulting conflict of one civilization upon another, over a period of four centuries....

It's true that they're both quite different, many were killed in each but the process was way different. Both of my maternal grandparents arrived in the US in the late 1800s, after the Indjun killing in earnest was over but I have little doubt that their was killing of Natives by ancestors on my father's side. His paternal side were settlers/ranchers in the AZ/NM border area from about the beginning of serious white inroads there and had been on the east coast before that for generations.

We can see the beauty and integrity of Native cultures from this distance but many of the early non-native settlers only barely had that luxury. Native Americans have/had forebears who also moved into new territory and experienced friction with prior residents. I think it's sorta universal in our ancestral trails.

LaRondo · #30 05-21-2012, 06:24 PM