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Maki · #91 07-21-2012, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by retmil46

Sure as hell would have been a sight better than daddy's little boy.

John Sidney "Jack" McCain Jr. (January 17, 1911 – March 22, 1981)

cmac2012 · #92 07-21-2012, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

I know what he's trying to say, but he delivered it stupidly. If I were a self-made business leader, I would be, at the very least, insulted by those remarks. Modern infrastructure is a given today. Everyone expects running water, electricity, web access, roads, and cell phones. The statement that businesses are more indebted to these things than anyone else who uses them, without citing all the positives that businesses provide is a big campaign mistake.

The full remarks in context are not as damning. And as for modern infrastructure being a given, try running your startup in Ghana or Somalia. Modern infrastructure is not in place by accident.

MS Fowler · #93 07-21-2012, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The full remarks in context are not as damning. And as for modern infrastructure being a given, try running your startup in Ghana or Somalia. Modern infrastructure is not in place by accident.

Roads run past many businesses. Some of them are closed down. Roads are not the critical factor in determining success or failure.
His statement was a betrayal of his true feelings. They are not "right" or "wrong", they are just are what he truly feels. He does not understand capitalism, or entrepreneurs, although he THINKS he does.

raymr · #94 07-21-2012, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

The full remarks in context are not as damning. And as for modern infrastructure being a given, try running your startup in Ghana or Somalia. Modern infrastructure is not in place by accident.

The full remarks are not as damning, but damning none the less. Ghana has nothing to do with the conversation.

MTUpower · #95 07-21-2012, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

I can't imagine anyone ever saying anything like that. Are you suggesting that is what Obama is saying?

It seems you have a view/idea/description of "you" in the you didn't built that. Tell us about who that you is to you- I think I might mis-understand that. Do you think the "you" we are about to hear about deserves more or less credit than the BHO statement (ie did he go far enough for you or do you think his view is mild and moderate)? Thanks.

Honus · #96 07-21-2012, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

...Roads are not the critical factor in determining success or failure....

Who suggested otherwise?

Quote:

His statement was a betrayal of his true feelings. ....

I suppose that's true. It is also true that Romney agrees with Obama on this point. In the same speech where he distorted Obama's statement, along the same lines it has been distorted in this thread, Romney conceded the obvious point that we can't have commerce without infrastructure. Do you disagree with that?

MS Fowler · #97 07-21-2012, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Honus

Who suggested otherwise?I suppose that's true. It is also true that Romney agrees with Obama on this point. In the same speech where he distorted Obama's statement, along the same lines it has been distorted in this thread, Romney conceded the obvious point that we can't have commerce without infrastructure. Do you disagree with that?

One of the democratic hacks said that if you have a business on a road, you didn't build the road. Implied is, "we" built the road, and "we" deserve credit for your success.

Infrastructure is far more important to the welfare of the country than we give budgetary consideration for. Its far sexier to cut a ribbon on a new commuter toll road than to replace failing gas, electric, water and sewer lines. Its the implication that "we" built that infrastructure that offends. Of course "we" built it, but the entrepreneur/ businessman invests far more that that in his business.
As has been said in other replies, everyone had the benefit of the same education ( more or less). It was available to all. But "all" did not appreciate it; "some" did. Some took advantage of the opportunities, and then applied a great deal of effort, and time and risk, and created a business that "all" failed to do. Should the "all" get the same benefit as the "some"? That, my friend is pure communism--from each.....to each. And that is a failed system; we do not need to try it again. It goes against human nature.

anthonyb · #98 07-22-2012, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

Maybe the quotes were wrong. The message is loud and clear.

Wow.

"So what I'm attributing to him isn't actually what he said (in other words, I'm going to lie to you), but I'm just going to say it because I want you to think that is what he really said."

And this is how conservatives distort the national discourse.

anthonyb · #99 07-22-2012, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

One of the democratic hacks said that if you have a business on a road, you didn't build the road. Implied is, "we" built the road, and "we" deserve credit for your success.

I think that is a far stretch of what is an otherwise perfectly rational statement. What Warren and Obama and many others are pointing out is that our individual accomplishments are built on a foundation of resources, community and infrastructure that has been laid down by others before us. They aren't saying that you don't deserve any credit for your success, only that you acknowledge the contribution of others (indeed your surrounding community) towards that success.

I mean you pretty much say it in your next sentence:

Quote:

Infrastructure is far more important to the welfare of the country than we give budgetary consideration for.

Quote:

As has been said in other replies, everyone had the benefit of the same education ( more or less). It was available to all. But "all" did not appreciate it; "some" did. Some took advantage of the opportunities, and then applied a great deal of effort, and time and risk, and created a business that "all" failed to do. Should the "all" get the same benefit as the "some"? That, my friend is pure communism--from each.....to each. And that is a failed system; we do not need to try it again. It goes against human nature.

Quite frankly I don't think anyone really believes that we start out with equal education or skill or opportunity in life, quite the opposite.

raymr · #**100** 07-22-2012, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyb

Wow.

"So what I'm attributing to him isn't actually what he said (in other words, I'm going to lie to you), but I'm just going to say it because I want you to think that is what he really said."

And this is how conservatives distort the national discourse.

You made the jump from paraphrase to lie. I don't need to lie - a few million others got the same impression I did. I'm sure the issue will come up in one of the debates, and Obama will smooth it over and make the misunderstanding all go away.

raymr · #**101** 07-22-2012, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anthonyb

Quite frankly I don't think anyone really believes that we start out with equal education or skill or opportunity in life, quite the opposite.

Anyone aged 25-55, i.e. business starting age, had much the same benefits of education and access to resources in this country, and minorities still get preferential small business treatment from the federal government. Skill are a different matter. You actually have develop and improve those yourself.

Honus · #**102** 07-22-2012, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

One of the democratic hacks said that if you have a business on a road, you didn't build the road. Implied is, "we" built the road, and "we" deserve credit for your success.

That might be what you infer from his comments, but I doubt that is what he intended to imply.

Quote:

Infrastructure is far more important to the welfare of the country than we give budgetary consideration for. Its far sexier to cut a ribbon on a new commuter toll road than to replace failing gas, electric, water and sewer lines. Its the implication that "we" built that infrastructure that offends. Of course "we" built it, but the entrepreneur/ businessman invests far more that that in his business.
As has been said in other replies, everyone had the benefit of the same education ( more or less). It was available to all. But "all" did not appreciate it; "some" did. Some took advantage of the opportunities, and then applied a great deal of effort, and time and risk, and created a business that "all" failed to do. Should the "all" get the same benefit as the "some"? That, my friend is pure communism--from each.....to each. And that is a failed system; we do not need to try it again. It goes against human nature.

Of course we built the infrastructure. I find it hard to believe that you disagree with that. Otherwise, I agree 100% with what you have said here. AFAIK, so does Obama. It's not his fault that you draw unwarranted conclusions about him.

Honus · #**103** 07-22-2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

It seems you have a view/idea/description of "you" in the you didn't built that. Tell us about who that you is to you- I think I might mis-understand that. Do you think the "you" we are about to hear about deserves more or less credit than the BHO statement (ie did he go far enough for you or do you think his view is mild and moderate)? Thanks.

The "you" in Obama's statement referred to the successful business person. Here is what he said:

Quote:

There are a lot of wealthy, successful Americans who agree with me — because they want to give something back. They know they didn’t — look, if you’ve been successful, you didn’t get there on your own. You didn’t get there on your own. I’m always struck by people who think, well, it must be because I was just so smart. There are a lot of smart people out there. It must be because I worked harder than everybody else. Let me tell you something — there are a whole bunch of hardworking people out there.

If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own**. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet. [emphasis added by me]
http://columbianacountygop.com/obama-if-you’ve-been-successful-you-didn’t-get-there-your-own

I don't know how "mild" that comment is, but it is certainly moderate. The first sentence in his statement is the most important, IMHO. He is saying that successful people should take a long view. Their success, usually at least, depends in part on things that the community provides - roads, bridges, internet, banking, etc., etc. If they have any sense, successful people should understand that, and many do.

The only part of his statement that might cause some heartburn is the part I highlighted. I agree with what he says, but he should have worded it in a fashion that would make it harder for people to distort.

Honus · #**104** 07-22-2012, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

You made the jump from paraphrase to lie....

To paraphrase means to convey the same meaning but in different words. You didn't do that. You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by raymr

You're not getting it. His statement was directed at business people, and he's saying "Don't think you're something special, because you are no better than the next guy, and your accomplishments really belong to all of us". It sounds like he is tolerating entrepreneurship, but not at all promoting it.

He didn't say any of that, nor can his words be reasonably interpreted in that fashion.

raymr · #**105** 07-22-2012, 09:39 AM

I increased the amplitude of (my take of) his statement to make my prediction of where the Obama campaign is going with it's message. I misused the quotes, but you all know those weren't his exact words anyway, so lets move on. He is building the framework of his differences with Romney and we will be seeing more of these extemporaneous little "slips", or blips, or whatever you call them, and each time we get a little better peek of his version of world order.