Do you. - Page 24 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

kerry · #**346** 01-22-2013, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

How does religion produce universal true knowledge when it only relies on it's self for proof.

Sounds like when adults say "because I said so" as an explanation to children.

I agree that Martureo's religion is unconvincing when it makes that claim, mostly because it relies upon an irrational commitment to a single holy text, but I think I understand his claim that his religion is universal. It's a false claim, but I do understand it.

davidmash · #**347** 01-22-2013, 03:35 PM

I did not think he was saying that his religion is universal but that his beliefs (that happen to coincide with his religion) are universal. For example, The fact that water is wet is a universal truth and his religion happens to believe that water is wet. I could be (probably am) off base with his beliefs as they are so alien to me I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.

kerry · #**348** 01-22-2013, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

I did not think he was saying that his religion is universal but that his beliefs (that happen to coincide with his religion) are universal. For example, The fact that water is wet is a universal truth and his religion happens to believe that water is wet. I could be (probably am) off base with his beliefs as they are so alien to me I have a hard time wrapping my head around it.

Maybe he is saying that.

davidmash · #**349** 01-22-2013, 03:48 PM

I just want to know what Marty thinks these universal truths are. I suspect it has more to do with the stuff in his bible being true and everyone eles's beliefs are misguided rather than stuff like water being wet.

elchivito · #**350** 01-22-2013, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Since what I wrote wasn't a quote at all, I'm doing my best to understand how it could be an incomplete one.

You quoted me incompletely, in much the same way you accused davidmash of using an incomplete quote.

elchivito · #**351** 01-22-2013, 05:02 PM

I just want to see, since he can tell me unequivocally that his god is not only his god but should be MINE, if he can tell me the specifics of my suffering; what it'll be like, when it'll start, how long it will last and so forth. If he's got the pelotas for one and he knows it from god's mouth, he should know the rest. Or at least be able to find out real easy.

Air&Road · #**352** 01-22-2013, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

You quoted me incompletely, in much the same way you accused davidmash of using an incomplete quote.

Maybe you should look in the dictionary or somewhere to learn what the word "quote" means.

chilcutt · #**353** 01-22-2013, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

What hypocrisy?

My beliefs are not just relative to me, they are what I believe to be universal truth.

If your beliefs aren't universal in nature (but only relative) then I have no respect for them, or you.

Astounding...you cannot see the hypocrisy..lets see, you have insulted me by calling me spineless for believing in a religion that differs from yours.

You have called another member a belligerant idiot because he did not defend the religion you believe in.

And then here, you make it personal, by saying you have no respect for me..if my beliefs do not coincide with what you interpret to be..
"The way to go"..

Tell me...does your religion commonly accept the practice of belitteling others..making cruel remarks..etc..in order to bring people to them?

chilcutt · #**354** 01-22-2013, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

I agree that Martureo's religion is unconvincing when it makes that claim, mostly because it relies upon an irrational commitment to a single holy text, but I think I understand his claim that his religion is universal. It's a false claim, but I do understand it.

It is my understanding that Excessive comparisons in Judaism caused an anthropomorphic description of God, and excessive love transformed the human Jesus into God, entailing corruption of the unity of God into a trinity.

As for "Universal"..It is by no means logical that a system sent for the bliss and salvation of humanity by Allah be alloted to a handfull of people while all others are left devoid of this bounty.

I think Marty fails miserably in his argument.

elchivito · #**355** 01-22-2013, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Maybe you should look in the dictionary or somewhere to learn what the word "quote" means.

Do I have to take a picture for you Larry? You quoted me incompletely.

Here you go:

Air&Road · #**356** 01-22-2013, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

Do I have to take a picture for you Larry? You quoted me incompletely.

Here you go:

Okay, first of all I did not know that was the post you were referring to.

Second of all I have no idea how that ended up as a partial quote, In all the time I have posted on this forum I do not remember ever intentionally doing a partial quote. It was a mistake and I apologize for it although I have no idea how it happened.

Now David can apologize to Mart for his partial quote. I will not be holding my breath while waiting for it though.

kerry · #**357** 01-22-2013, 08:06 PM

I have a fair number of evangelical and conservative Christian friends, especially on Facebook. I've noticed that a fair number of the apologists resort to insult as a tactic quite frequently. I don't think this is just bad manners or an accident. There have been intellectual developments within Evangelicalism which has produced this tendency. At one time, evangelicals were 'evidentialist', that is people who attempted to provide convincing reasons for their beliefs. But, as a result of the influence of an Evangelical philosopher named Alvin Plantinga, their intellectual tactics changed. He argues that instead of proving the truth of religious beliefs, one only needs to prove that they are 'properly basic'. A properly basic belief is a legitimate belief which cannot be proven, such as the existence of other minds. According to him, people are entitled to hold 'properly basic' beliefs without evidence. This amounts to a 'weak' defense of religious beliefs. They're not 'true' but 'unprovable yet ok to be believed'.
In these circumstances, there is little the apologist can do except see if he or she (not likely to be a 'she' though) can do except try to find claims in the opponents views that are not true and then hope for the best. So if you can't establish positive reasons for religious beliefs, it's easy to resort to hurling insults at the enemy.

elchivito · #**358** 01-22-2013, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Air&Road

Okay, first of all I did not know that was the post you were referring to.

Second of all I have no idea how that ended up as a partial quote, In all the time I have posted on this forum I do not remember ever intentionally doing a partial quote. It was a mistake and I apologize for it although I have no idea how it happened.

Now David can apologize to Mart for his partial quote. I will not be holding my breath while waiting for it though.

The Lord did it. He was goofing on you. Like he did Job and the others.

martureo · #**359** 01-23-2013, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Not at all. I'm totally happy hearing the voice of God directly from you. No need to introduce any more middle men when you have God on speed dial.

While I do have God on speed dial, I've been getting my information from the Bible.

No need to accuse me of any prophetic claim.

martureo · #**360** 01-23-2013, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

When does the suffering start?

The punishment? Well, one could already say you are suffering for your rejection of God.

Quote:

You're finally up front about your belief that there is only one god and you know who he is,

Finally? I've been up front from the beginning.

Quote:

so I'd expect a bit more direct answer about the consequences of rejecting him. You can spare me the biblical quotes, I'm intimately familiar with them. You can also spare me the quotes from "learned" authorities. God's mouth is clearly in your ear,

Where did you hear that from?

Quote:

what does he have to say in this regard?