BPD Marksmanship? - Page 6 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

cmac2012 · #76 04-23-2013, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Okay, we agree that the gov didn't handle the initial portion correctly.

Do we also agree that subsequent actions are dependent or predicated on the first event?

What I mean is this: Had BATF not done what they did, it is less likely that agents would have been shot, etc.

(note that this does not in any way absolve or excuse Koresh's subsequent actions)

Well yeah, but did that mean ATF and FBI should have just gone home saying something, "We didn't realize you people were this into it. Go ahead and do what you was doing."

I mean what, they were supposed to wait for 6 months? While food and water were being taken in regular, for the children's sake?

I dunno, I often don't feel that charitable to govt. heavy-handedness, it just seems like the expectation is they (govt.) have to be perfect, while the people they deal with are allowed normal human frailties.

Botnst · #77 04-23-2013, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Well yeah, but did that mean ATF and FBI should have just gone home saying something, "We didn't realize you people were this into it. Go ahead and do what you was doing."

I mean what, they were supposed to wait for 6 months? While food and water were being taken in regular, for the children's sake?

I dunno, I often don't feel that charitable to govt. heavy-handedness, it just seems like the expectation is they (govt.) have to be perfect, while the people they deal with are allowed normal human frailties.

How would building a tall fence around the compound and providing food and water been any different from incarceration?

cmac2012 · #78 04-23-2013, 12:30 PM

Do you think they would have stayed meekly inside their compound, gazing at their arsenal, while such a fence was being built?

Botnst · #79 04-23-2013, 01:37 PM

We'll never know what they would have done, no matter which alternative we might imagine.

One by-catch of the event is as a rallying cry for all kinds of conspiracy theory nutjobs. Had the gov not murdered that guy's family at Ruby Ridge or incinerated those families in Waco, McVeigh would have been deprived of them as justification for his murderous action.

No, I am not excusing McVeigh.

But people like him are out there, looking for a way to justify whatever terrible act they wish to commit against the Great Satan. It does nobody any good for the Great Satan to give them a target for their madness.

cmac2012 · #80 04-24-2013, 01:18 AM

True enough. One hopes people with hands on various reins of power took note of what mistakes like that can inspire, and I wish I could think of a better word than inspire cuz inspire is usually a nice word.

Lao Tzu wrote of the various gradiants of leadership talent, or lack of. Not to go all woo-woo but the Buddha had some wise words that might have helped govt. employess in those episodes: "Restraint. In all things, exercise restraint."

Diesel911 · #81 04-26-2013, 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Like I said, ATF blew it on many levels. What bothers me is the way Koresh and BDs are given every break and LEO none. I can imagine that they wanted to not only arrest Koresh but seize the weapons for evidence.

As for them not being pushovers, how did their behavior protect their children? They knew it was law enforcement they were dealing with. If they'd had the brains God gave a pissant, they'd have known that they weren't going to prevail in a confrontation.

This is the way I look at it.

If someone grabbed a Child and held the Hostage the Law would do everything possible; including letting the Hostage Taker get away if it would save the Childs life.

In this case the Parents were acting sort of like they were holding their Children hostage to the extent that their actions were endangering the Children.

That left it up to the Law to act in the best interest of the Children.
In this case instead of acting in the best interest of the Children the Law acted to benefit itself because they were embarrassed.

Even sadder is that there was not much sympathy from the Public because the general feeling was they were a whole bunch of crazies.

What happened sets a Precedent that if the Government can put a label on you or a group that the general Public does not like or care about they endanger You, Your Family or Group and get away with it.

t walgamuth · #82 04-27-2013, 05:02 AM

Or how about when the government shows up with a tank, surrender?

Air&Road · #83 04-27-2013, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

Or how about when the government shows up with a tank, surrender?

That's right, and if they DON'T surrender, just murder all of them, even the innocent ones that were under the control of others.

t walgamuth · #84 04-27-2013, 06:48 AM

Hey if you don't want to surrender, that is your choice.

Kindof reminds me of the Alamo. 132 men, 5000 Mexican army.

Brian Carlton · #85 04-27-2013, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

What happened sets a Precedent that if the Government can put a label on you or a group that the general Public does not like or care about they endanger You, Your Family or Group and get away with it.

Terrorist!!

cmac2012 · #86 04-28-2013, 03:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

This is the way I look at it.

If someone grabbed a Child and held the Hostage the Law would do everything possible; including letting the Hostage Taker get away if it would save the Childs life.

In this case the Parents were acting sort of like they were holding their Children hostage to the extent that their actions were endangering the Children.

That left it up to the Law to act in the best interest of the Children.
In this case instead of acting in the best interest of the Children the Law acted to benefit itself because they were embarrassed.

Even sadder is that there was not much sympathy from the Public because the general feeling was they were a whole bunch of crazies.

What happened sets a Precedent that if the Government can put a label on you or a group that the general Public does not like or care about they endanger You, Your Family or Group and get away with it.

I dunno. I think 51 days of negotiations was some serious patience. It's all been said before. How were they going to let him get away? Dude didn't want to get away. He wanted to be martyred and in the spotlight while doing so.

There are mixed opinions on what started the fire:

DEATH IN WACO - The Tear Gas - Chemical Isn't Meant to Cause Fire - NYTimes.com

Diesel911 · #87 04-28-2013, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I dunno. I think 51 days of negotiations was some serious patience. It's all been said before. How were they going to let him get away? Dude didn't want to get away. He wanted to be martyred and in the spotlight while doing so.

There are mixed opinions on what started the fire:

DEATH IN WACO - The Tear Gas - Chemical Isn't Meant to Cause Fire - NYTimes.com

Concerning the Fire there is another incidented where the Police corneded a group called MOVE in I think it was Philidelphia PA and the Tear Gas Gernades started a Fire that ended up burning down what was called a Whole City Block.
One would assume that the Police know that there is a chance of these things causing a Fire and made a decision to use them anyway.

There will always be unanswered questions as to what happend inside the Building as most of the Witnesses are Dead.

My comment was about if Law Enforcement were obligated to follow a proceedure that would have protected the Children.

As far as the 51 days of negotiations that was caused by the ATF not using common sense in arresting David first out side if the Compound. That led to an embarrassing stand off (and an expensive one).

If David had been previously arrested the People in the Compound would have had no Leader to follow and likely would not have resisted in the manner that they did.

Botnst · #88 04-28-2013, 12:49 PM

Tear gas is produced when the material in the canister burns. Hmmm, burns.... Hmmmmmmmm

t walgamuth · #89 04-28-2013, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Concerning the Fire there is another incidented where the Police corneded a group called MOVE in I think it was Philidelphia PA and the Tear Gas Gernades started a Fire that ended up burning down what was called a Whole City Block.
One would assume that the Police know that there is a chance of these things causing a Fire and made a decision to use them anyway.

There will always be unanswered questions as to what happend inside the Building as most of the Witnesses are Dead.

My comment was about if Law Enforcement were obligated to follow a proceedure that would have protected the Children.

As far as the 51 days of negotiations that was caused by the ATF not using common sense in arresting David first out side if the Compound. That led to an embarrassing stand off (and an expensive one).

If David had been previously arrested the People in the Compound would have had no Leader to follow and likely would not have resisted in the manner that they did.

Did they know he was inside at the start of it all?

cmac2012 · #90 04-28-2013, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Concerning the Fire there is another incidented where the Police corneded a group called MOVE in I think it was Philidelphia PA and the Tear Gas Gernades started a Fire that ended up burning down what was called a Whole City Block.
One would assume that the Police know that there is a chance of these things causing a Fire and made a decision to use them anyway.

There will always be unanswered questions as to what happend inside the Building as most of the Witnesses are Dead.

My comment was about if Law Enforcement were obligated to follow a proceedure that would have protected the Children.

As far as the 51 days of negotiations that was caused by the ATF not using common sense in arresting David first out side if the Compound. That led to an embarrassing stand off (and an expensive one).

If David had been previously arrested the People in the Compound would have had no Leader to follow and likely would not have resisted in the manner that they did.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. OF COURSE they should have done it better from the git go. Tear gas was an attempt at a humanitarian outcome.

I think you have the details of the MOVE fire wrong:

Quote:

A police helicopter then dropped two one-pound bombs made of Water gel explosive, a dynamite substitute, targeting fortified, bunker-like cubicle on the roof of the house.

MOVE - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Every other report I can find or recall refers to a bomb, not to tear gas cannisters.