BPD Marksmanship? - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Diesel911 · #61 04-22-2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I just saw a replay of MSNBC's 'Witness to Waco' yesterday. On the first day of the episode, Koresh called 911 and proceeded to talk theology with the sheriff on the phone.

Dude had every opportunity to surrender but his megalomania and delusions of messianic grandeur wouldn't allow that. There's a bit in the bible about how God would surround his precious ones with a wall of fire to protect them. Wouldn't surprise me a bit if that loony tune took steps to make sure a wall of flame would be what happened.

What, society was supposed to allow dude to set himself up with multiple child brides while arming himself with beau coup illegal weapons in some walled compound?

Give it a rest on Waco already.

I remember also reading that Davie Koresh often went to the local Town to buy Stuff and could easily have been Arrested there; making you wonder why the whole Stand Off had to happen to begin with.

This is slightly off subject compared to the above comment but I remember the News Reporting that after the Fire they found a bunch of Hand Grenades.
If so they must not have been live Hand Grenades or they would have blown up during the Fire.
The tone of the News Story was one of justification for what happend; no one of logic.

To attack the Building with Women and Children in it the way the attack was done was wrong.

Air&Road · #62 04-22-2013, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

I remember also reading that Davie Koresh often went to the local Town to buy Stuff and could easily have been Arrested there; making you wonder why the whole Stand Off had to happen to begin with.

This is slightly off subject compared to the above comment but I remember the News Reporting that after the Fire they found a bunch of Hand Grenades.
If so they must not have been live Hand Grenades or they would have blown up during the Fire.
The tone of the News Story was one of justification for what happend; no one of logic.

Yes, I pointed out earlier in the thread that DK could have easily been picked up on his daily jog. Problem is that it would not have provided the photo OP that they had planned on. Little did they know that they weren't busting in on a pushover.

cmac2012 · #63 04-22-2013, 07:04 PM

Like I said, ATF blew it on many levels. What bothers me is the way Koresh and BDs are given every break and LEO none. I can imagine that they wanted to not only arrest Koresh but seize the weapons for evidence.

As for them not being pushovers, how did their behavior protect their children? They knew it was law enforcement they were dealing with. If they'd had the brains God gave a pissant, they'd have known that they weren't going to prevail in a confrontation.

Medmech · #64 04-22-2013, 08:00 PM

I have read and seen almost everything about the Waco massacre, I know a person that was there and only here do I see anyone that is willing to defend the government for its actions. Every law we have to protect the people from the government was thrown away to burn some so called wrong doers to their death. It's clear that no lessons were learned from Blair Mountain and as BC puts it, "the average person is a moron".

Jorn · #65 04-22-2013, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Like I said, ATF blew it on many levels. What bothers me is the way Koresh and BDs are given every break and LEO none. I can imagine that they wanted to not only arrest Koresh but seize the weapons for evidence.

As for them not being pushovers, how did their behavior protect their children? They knew it was law enforcement they were dealing with. If they'd had the brains God gave a pissant, they'd have known that they weren't going to prevail in a confrontation.

The LEO doesn't get a break because the sole reason the ATF went in was to show their relevance. The administration was going to cut the ATF's budget and they needed a show piece. WACO is a black day in US history.

Medmech · #66 04-22-2013, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Hence he, his followers and their children clearly deserved incineration. Feck due process.

Feching due process is entirely acceptable if you believe in those who fech due process.

Botnst · #67 04-22-2013, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I'm not trying to defend the mistakes of ATF. OTOH, portraying them as wanting to fry a bunch of religious zanies is way off the mark IMO. You take the position that LEOs ought to be perfect and enlightened regardless of what a subject warranted for arrest does. If they had built "a fence around the compound" you and others would have another list of LEO abuses. And yeah, I'm just sure that would work while them inside had the arms and ammo of a small army.

There was enough testimony on child abuse to warrant some investigation of that but that wasn't the legal complaint AFAIK. They reportedly had some 50 illegally modified machine guns. Also live grenades and silencers, items they were not licensed to possess. Word I recall is that Koresh and gang openly brandished these weapons in public - not sure about TX law at the time but I'm pretty certain that full auto weapons are not allowed to be brandished in public.

How many weeks and months should LEO maintain a siege around such a place? At what point does the public outcry about starving a bunch of children become loud?

This business of standing jut jawed, as the true and last protector of genuine American liberty rings hollow to me. In a case like this, LEOs are given no slack while pea-brained fools like Koresh and minions are given an infinite amount.

Sorry man, that's disgusting crap.

When we legally empower an agency to enforce laws then we should hold them to a higher standard than that to which we hold civilians. Police powers are awesome. The people enforcing them should be also.

Why? Because when law enforcement makes a mistake innocent peoples lives' are affected. Like those incinerated children, for example. Each of those people has a presumption of innocence associated with them individually. We don't do communal punishment. Or we shouldn't.

Law enforcement must never be given a break. The entire chain of command including the AG should have been shyte-canned.

When something this egregious happens, a bureaucratic letter of reprimand and early retirement just doesn't cut it. I want justice.

Medmech · #68 04-22-2013, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I think it was more than just their lifestyle. They chose to amass an illegal arsenal:

Unchecked they could have changed us all into newts!

cmbdiesel · #69 04-22-2013, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Medmech

Unchecked they could have changed us all into newts!

She turned me into a newt....

cmac2012 · #70 04-22-2013, 09:57 PM

Yeah, all right, cute. Saying that they burned the children to death is hyperbole. Those nimrods chose to arm themselves to the teeth and kept their children as human shields in spite of beau coup opportunities to get them to safety. And it seems a bit curious that the place erupted into flames from tear gas canisters.

I'm not defending every last bit of govt. behavior in this. But to put the total onus of blame on ATF is just not accurate. The business of ATF trying to justify themselves seems a bit leading. If we are a nation of laws, then what are we to do with people who thumb their nose at the law, who apparently believe that their religious practice puts them in an exclusive place?

People seem to think cops are supposed to be robocop, operating with no fear of being killed themselves. It has to be a bit tough, knowing that there's always going to be a target on their back to some extent with some people.

Botnst · #71 04-22-2013, 10:01 PM

I get it, really.

I just believe your thinking is wrong-headed.

Let's assume for a moment that Koresh was guilty of every charge and rumor.

This means we agree that Koresh was a batshyte crazy megalomaniacal lunatic. Who had a lot of guns.

And a house full of children.

Wouldn't we expect that the government could have maybe considered something less confrontational and patient when dealing with an armed nutter surrounded by children?

cmac2012 · #72 04-22-2013, 11:42 PM

Of course they should have. The ATF people involved admit they should have scrapped the raid that day. But the place didn't burn down that day, it was 51 days later. 51 days seems like an example of patience.

I heard the 911 tape of Koresh calling to complain about armed agents assaulting their compound on the first day. He kept lapsing into biblical last days talk, speaking about the 7 seals and the like. (insert the standard response, 'so that means the ATF was obligated to burn him and children alive?')

There was plenty of time for Koresh and crew to calm down. But he/they didn't. Koresh was in messianic delusions about being crucified. Word I've read is that he originally thought his martyrdom would come in Israel, but by 1991 thought it would be in the United States. Also that from '92 he was talking about martyrdom in his sermons. I'm sorry but I see a little bit of Jim Jones in dude, only it was suicide by cop with Koresh.

Botnst · #73 04-23-2013, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

Of course they should have. The ATF people involved admit they should have scrapped the raid that day. But the place didn't burn down that day, it was 51 days later. 51 days seems like an example of patience.

I heard the 911 tape of Koresh calling to complain about armed agents assaulting their compound on the first day. He kept lapsing into biblical last days talk, speaking about the 7 seals and the like. (insert the standard response, 'so that means the ATF was obligated to burn him and children alive?')

There was plenty of time for Koresh and crew to calm down. But he/they didn't. Koresh was in messianic delusions about being crucified. Word I've read is that he originally thought his martyrdom would come in Israel, but by 1991 thought it would be in the United States. Also that from '92 he was talking about martyrdom in his sermons. I'm sorry but I see a little bit of Jim Jones in dude, only it was suicide by cop with Koresh.

Okay, we agree that the gov didn't handle the initial portion correctly.

Do we also agree that subsequent actions are dependent or predicated on the first event?

What I mean is this: Had BATF not done what they did, it is less likely that agents would have been shot, etc.

(note that this does not in any way absolve or excuse Koresh's subsequent actions)

mgburg · #74 04-23-2013, 12:31 AM

Waco was handled badly, even before "Day 1."

You'd think that the booberment would have had the brains that Dog gave 'em to wait 'em out.

"Nope, budgets to meet and keep in line, don't spend more than the body-count..."

With that said, dead all around and no one to take responsiblility...just blame Koresh.

As for the OP part of this post...

A thought...

How would you like to be the CSI individual responsible for determining what round went where and who fired any particular round from what position, when?

WHAT?????

"Yep...sweep up the brass and more on...nothing to see here..."

If they're (pardon the pun) shooting for accuracy (both figurative as well as actual), good luck with that.

It was an "adrenaline shootout" for the most part. It seems that only thing that went where it was suppose to go was the "flash-bang" and that was it.

Where was David when you needed him? Dam "Slingshot-5-Day-Waiting-Period" rules. I heard it wasn't registered, either...

Txjake · #75 04-23-2013, 02:08 AM

IF the BDs had had any real military training, and knew how to defend a structure, ATF would have filled many more body bags. The ATF assualt plan was piss poor