Now it almost sounds like the brothers were either shooting from the car or behind the car, which may explain why they weren't as easy to hit. Also, current reports say that the 19-year-old was wounded in the neck, so apparently they came close.

Of course, all of this could be wrong; but, it is what we are reading/hearing in the news.

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1982 300SD -- 211k, Texas car, tranny issues ____ 1979 240D 4-speed 234k -- turbo and tuned IP, third world taxi hot rod

2 Samuel 12:13: "David said to Nathan, “I have sinned against the Lord.” And Nathan said to David, “The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die."

What kind of example? How to get co-workers killed and burn a bunch of women/children caught in the middle to death?

If you're teaching a class on "how to perform a goatf**k", then this is a great example!

It was a goat ****
They were trying to intimidate the "dangerous " population that the government held all yje cards. It failed.

Hence he, his followers and their children clearly deserved incineration. Feck due process.

The way they were pumping out lead, I guess their is no ammo shortage in their departments!

Its amazing they didn't kill anyone by lighting off that many rounds in a residential neighborhood.

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I think it was more than just their lifestyle. They chose to amass an illegal arsenal:

How David Koresh Got All Those Guns - US News and World Report

Their behavior brought about their own deaths. Amazing to me how people will often proudly refer to our gubmint in the US as 'the rule of law' and still defend the Branch Davidians. Koresh and co. thumbed their nose at being beholding to any law.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

Do you really think tear gas canisters caused that place to go up in flames? Correct me if I'm wrong but does due process generally begin with an arrest? These people were not in the mood to be arrested, then or at any time. It was botched in many regards of course. They originally wanted to make the approach while the men were working outside on a project on the grounds but it had rained and with the mud, no one was working. But they went ahead anyway.

They clearly could have timed it better. But my take is that the BDs fired first, people don't amass that sort of arsenal unless they're planning to rely on it. Child bride boy wanted to set up his own kingdom, complete with separate laws. Where is that allowed in our land?

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

The allegation of sexual abuse was never substantiated, IIRC.

Too muddy to go on Day X. So why not wait for Day X+14? There was no rush. Those folks weren't going anywhere.

There was no need to 'smoke them out'. Want them imprisoned? Fine. Build a fence around the compound. Done.

It was highly convenient that the gov conducted its own investigation and then obliterated the entire embarrassment.

uh, nothing in that article definatively said that the weapons were illegal. All subjective from the ATF.

Yeah, that's right. If someone has too many guns on hand, just burn 'em to the ground, women, children et al.

The ATF was clearly trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill, because at the time there was a committee looking into giving them more funding. If they had simply wanted to deal with Koresh, he jogged outside the compound every day. It would have been a quiet and simple matter to pick him up when he jogged.

That would not have accomplished their mission to gain exposure to justify their need for added funds. This is how beauracrats think. Reno and withHolder were right in the middle of this and both of them should have lost their jobs.

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Annoy a Liberal, Read the Constitution

WGAS about a buncha backwoods religious rednecks? Burn'em.

This was due to.....

The gun was loaded with plastic bullets that would make a splat when they hit something. They were also capable of breaking something made of glass.

The gun was fired and the last round did not have enough power to clear the barrel. So there was a wad of plastic stuck in the barrel.

The scene with Lee was using blanks, but the barrel was not checked for obstructions. When the blanks was fired the stuck plastic round was discharge and that struck Lee and killed him.

This was an accident, but it could have been prevented. Making a film is like any other industrial process: Safety First.

I have not seen the video.

Try shooting an automatic weapon with a six inch barrel while holding it with only one hand.

Nothing to it.

I'm not trying to defend the mistakes of ATF. OTOH, portraying them as wanting to fry a bunch of religious zanies is way off the mark IMO. You take the position that LEOs ought to be perfect and enlightened regardless of what a subject warranted for arrest does. If they had built "a fence around the compound" you and others would have another list of LEO abuses. And yeah, I'm just sure that would work while them inside had the arms and ammo of a small army.

There was enough testimony on child abuse to warrant some investigation of that but that wasn't the legal complaint AFAIK. They reportedly had some 50 illegally modified machine guns. Also live grenades and silencers, items they were not licensed to possess. Word I recall is that Koresh and gang openly brandished these weapons in public - not sure about TX law at the time but I'm pretty certain that full auto weapons are not allowed to be brandished in public.

How many weeks and months should LEO maintain a siege around such a place? At what point does the public outcry about starving a bunch of children become loud?

This business of standing jut jawed, as the true and last protector of genuine American liberty rings hollow to me. In a case like this, LEOs are given no slack while pea-brained fools like Koresh and minions are given an infinite amount.

Sorry man, that's disgusting crap.

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1986 300SDL, 362K
1984 300D, 138K

This is true. One of the Shooting Ranges I used to go to (On part of a Navel Base) there was the Civilian side and the other side where the LAPD and other Police qualified. The Civilians did much better and some of the Police Targets were closer than 25 yards.

But, on their side th Police had to draw from their Holster an fire x amount of rounds within a x amount of time time and they did not want the allow the Civilians any rapid fire.

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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel