Heaven, Hell and the Devil - Page 24 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

greazzer · #**346** 06-27-2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

Maybe it is the fear of death or the end of existence that prompts us to invent religion. To give us hope that it isn't over, to give meaning to what you are doing, etc, etc. Much like imagining there is a warm fire waiting for you after the long trudge in the cold or there is a reason for the struggle like going to college, etc, etc. Doesn't mean there is a fire waiting for you or there is a good job after graduation.

I mean, what is the real point of heaven, besides the existence not ending?

I believe that would be the view or a view of the atheist. That is, religion is created by man to distract and dilute finitude and one's impending mortality. However, the Chrisitan sees God and the sublime as the end game and the current, tangible world is the distraction. In the big picture, it's a different way of addressing those who believe and those who do not, just a different vocabulary and analysis. The atheist perhaps has an understanding of the fear of death and all the distractions, artifices, and other mechanisms which are created to bury one's fate. However, implicit in that paradigm is the understanding that all these constructs are by definition man made. Whereas, the Christain may very well do the same exact thing, except with his acceptance of his earthly finitude is the Belief of an after life governed by an all loving God. That all loving God is beyond man and not something created by man. Thus, the implicit decay with man made items is removed, and this may be where the concepts of eternity stems from. However, this is not a construct of the mind but a real, tangible God which created everything. And, because God exists outside of time and space which we occupy, the notion of Faith takes over. For the atheist I suspect, the submission to Faith and something beyond one's existence is not something in the cards. For the Christian, that is the hand dealt and to be played.

kerry · #**347** 06-27-2013, 09:08 PM

The issue is whether or not there is the slightest evidence for such things.

elchivito · #**348** 06-27-2013, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

The issue is whether or not there is the slightest evidence for such things.

I'd have to say the evidence can only be personally held, not something provable to anyone else. You can quote all the dead people you want, drop names of bishops and their creeds and philosophers modern and ancient and it finally all comes down to the evidence that has meaning to YOU.

greazzer · #**349** 06-27-2013, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

The issue is whether or not there is the slightest evidence for such things.

As I have said in the past and will repeat here again, there is no evidence whatsoever in the entire universe for the atheist.

For the Christian, he points to the universe and any little part of it and there is more than enough evidence. Actually, the Christian just needs Faith as his evidence.

I suspect for the "real" athiest, even if Jesus flew through the skies in a fiery chariot very Sunday, once a month, that would not be good enough. So, as Gold Member would say, there is no pleasing you.

kerry · #**350** 06-27-2013, 09:41 PM

How is faith evidence?

davidmash · #**351** 06-27-2013, 10:57 PM

How is there no evidence in the entire universe for an atheist?

aklim · #**352** 06-28-2013, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

Whereas, the Christain may very well do the same exact thing, except with his acceptance of his earthly finitude is the Belief of an after life governed by an all loving God. That all loving God is beyond man and not something created by man. Thus, the implicit decay with man made items is removed, and this may be where the concepts of eternity stems from. However, this is not a construct of the mind but a real, tangible God which created everything. And, because God exists outside of time and space which we occupy, the notion of Faith takes over.For the atheist I suspect, the submission to Faith and something beyond one's existence is not something in the cards. For the Christian, that is the hand dealt and to be played.

So back to the warm fire after a long trek in the cold. Does your belief in the fire make it true?

aklim · #**353** 06-28-2013, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

As I have said in the past and will repeat here again, there is no evidence whatsoever in the entire universe for the atheist.

For the Christian, he points to the universe and any little part of it and there is more than enough evidence. Actually, the Christian just needs Faith as his evidence.

I suspect for the "real" athiest, even if Jesus flew through the skies in a fiery chariot very Sunday, once a month, that would not be good enough. So, as Gold Member would say, there is no pleasing you.

Are you even sure there IS proof? That is like saying "Even if I could get at the grapes, I wouldn't want them since they are sour.".

aklim · #**354** 06-28-2013, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidmash

How is there no evidence in the entire universe for an atheist?

Because no evidence has existed or is existing besides supposition and good hope. Can evidence exist in the future? Sure. Have I seen it yet? Nope.

Benz Dr. · #**355** 06-28-2013, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

I think the "fear of dealth" is more akin to the denial of death. And yes, I borrow heavily from the book by Becker and this is a simple copy-cat here. However, from a Christian perspective, it looks to me that if one does not believe in God, then what remains is rather dusty, dirty, and just sand, hence the fear of death makes perfect sense. Plug in the concept of God, then we transcend our inevitable return to dust. Is that "a" reason to believe in God? Probably not ... but it help explains the fear so to speak. And, I hope you reflect and return to the Church, and it does not absolutely have to be a R.C. Church, but any Church that worships Jesus.

I don't think of myself as a religous person so I doubt I will go to any church looking for answers although I do enjoy a good sermon once in a while.
Does this make me a bad person? I don't think so nor do I feel the need to support something I don't agree with. The basic tenants of Christianity are sound - the positions taken by the RC church on some key issues, not so much.

chilcutt · #**356** 06-28-2013, 02:47 AM

I believe the dis-connect occurs when greasser panders to the public-inviting someone to return to the church-'As long as it is a church that glorify's jesus'.

It is like saying that one cannot have a relationship with God if they follow another faith..such as Hindi,or Islam-'But you will be OK as long as you believe as I believe'

Bottom line: A narrow minded viewpoint IMHO. And definately not strengthening his position as being a person who adheres to the Bibles principles.

greazzer · #**357** 06-28-2013, 06:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I believe the dis-connect occurs when greasser panders to the public-inviting someone to return to the church-'As long as it is a church that glorify's jesus'.

It is like saying that one cannot have a relationship with God if they follow another faith..such as Hindi,or Islam-'But you will be OK as long as you believe as I believe'

Bottom line: A narrow minded viewpoint IMHO. And definately not strengthening his position as being a person who adheres to the Bibles principles.

Here we go again with the insults. It's my Faith and that Faith has rules, and that is how it goes and if you don't like it, well ... tough.

It's OK, there is still hope for you.

martureo · #**358** 06-28-2013, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

I believe the dis-connect occurs when greasser panders to the public-inviting someone to return to the church-'As long as it is a church that glorify's jesus'.

It is like saying that one cannot have a relationship with God if they follow another faith..such as Hindi,or Islam-'But you will be OK as long as you believe as I believe'

Bottom line: A narrow minded viewpoint IMHO. And definately not strengthening his position as being a person who adheres to the Bibles principles.

"Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."' (John 14:6 ESV)

"This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:11-12 ESV)

"“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." (Matthew 7:13-14 ESV)

I'm not sure what Bible you're reading....exclusivity is pretty obvious. One cannot have a good relationship with God as a Buddhist, Muslim, Hindi, etc. Those are false gods.

martureo · #**359** 06-28-2013, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

and you are operating on the presupposition that he didn't. If his apostles were all literate and capable of writing, I am prepared to make the leap and believe that Jesus was also literate and probably wrote. Neither one of us has any real evidence either way, though my opinion is based on a little more logic.

Again, your ignorance of the situation is astounding.

I'm not operating on the presupposition that Jesus didn't write, I'm operating on the consensus of all scholars that he didn't/couldn't.

Can you please provide the evidence to show that the "apostles were also literate and capable of writing"? I'd love to see it.

Quote:

you will find that if you read my previous comments, I have repeatedly clarified what I stated by hundreds of years later, and ill let you do that search.

No, what you've done is repeatedly said something different than what you meant. Your writing must improve if you intend to hold many more conversations with anyone reading the English language.

Quote:

Interesting, I worked next to and for people who adhered to the Church of Latter Day Saints for years myself, and also dealt with them on a daily basis, what of it? I don't pretend to be in a position to speak for them as you do apparently. Now you will be insulted for people you probably consider a form of heretic?
However, I can comment on my conviction that their religion is so preposterous that it makes the idea of you as a priest seem reasonable in comparison.

Ironically, Mormon's are some of the cleanest living, nicest people ive ever met. Its a shame they have built a religion on the scams of a con artist.

Finally, something we can agree on.

aklim · #**360** 06-28-2013, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilcutt

It is like saying that one cannot have a relationship with God if they follow another faith..such as Hindi,or Islam-'But you will be OK as long as you believe as I believe'

I don't follow. You cannot have membership in my club if you don't follow the rules. I don't follow the rules and beliefs of islam. Can I call myself a muslim? You can believe in the islamic god but that is their version of religion. I can believe in Thor and that is his take on religion but so what? You can't believe in a certain deity unless you believe in that version.

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