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  #16  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
So do Muslims, Christians, Zoroastrians, and Jews -- not all people of a given religion are cut from the same stripe.
You need to ask the Brotherhood that question. I've asked apparently 'westernized' Muslims in Turkey that question and their answer was 'NO". Allah is the lawmaker. Humans might interpret and apply the law, but they can't legislate. It's rooted in the basic principle of submission.

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  #17  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
You need to ask the Brotherhood that question. I've asked apparently 'westernized' Muslims in Turkey that question and their answer was 'NO". Allah is the lawmaker. Humans might interpret and apply the law, but they can't legislate. It's rooted in the basic principle of submission.
And is our law not itself distantly based on Biblical law? You could say that most law is an interpretation of other, more ancient laws. The only difference is the latitude given in interpreting it.
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  #18  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
And is our law not itself distantly based on Biblical law? You could say that most law is an interpretation of other, more ancient laws. The only difference is the latitude given in interpreting it.
Errrr, no. It's based upon a Constitution. The Supreme Court can't appeal to divine command when deciding upon legality. I don't know about your state but in my state, legislative decisions are decided by a majority vote.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
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1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
Errrr, no. It's based upon a Constitution. The Supreme Court can't appeal to divine command when deciding upon legality. I don't know about your state but in my state, legislative decisions are decided by a majority vote.
The Constitution is one part of the law, however, other laws (murder is illegal, theft is illegal, blue laws, perjury laws, etc) stem from older sources.
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  #20  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
The Constitution is one part of the law, however, other laws (murder is illegal, theft is illegal, blue laws, perjury laws, etc) stem from older sources.
But we test those laws against the Constitution and not a divine command. In addition, we think that legislators, when they vote, are engaged in a legitimate human activity. Do we not?
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1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #21  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:54 PM
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But we test those laws against the Constitution and not a divine command. In addition, we think that legislators, when they vote, are engaged in a legitimate human activity. Do we not?
The difference between "interpreting the law of G-d" and making human laws can be more semantic than real. Bet you that you can find lawmakers right here in the good 'ol US of A who think they're doing the former.

Constitution written 230 years ago. "Set of divine commands" written by someone 600 or 1200 years ago. What's the difference?
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  #22  
Old 08-16-2013, 05:57 PM
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One big difference is the issue I'm trying to get at: Is democracy legitimate?

Divine commands aren't ratified.

I don't disagree that the USA has its fair share of theocrats.
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1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #23  
Old 08-16-2013, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
One big difference is the issue I'm trying to get at: Is democracy legitimate?

Divine commands aren't ratified.

I don't disagree that the USA has its fair share of theocrats.
What I'm getting at is that ultimately, even US law is based on an interpretation of ancient rules that weren't ratified. I don't actually see anything wrong with that, it's just the way it is.
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  #24  
Old 08-16-2013, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
What I'm getting at is that ultimately, even US law is based on an interpretation of ancient rules that weren't ratified. I don't actually see anything wrong with that, it's just the way it is.
I disagree. We have a system that legitimates law by voting in a legislature. Everyone can discuss and interpret ancient laws, but ultimately the legislature makes law by an act of its will. It's the substitute of combined human wills for God's will. That's the central difference between theocracy and democracy.

Obviously, there is a connection of some sort between previous laws and current laws. But a few hundred years ago, Westerners decided that leaving lawmaking in the hands of monarchs, priests and aristocrats was a bad idea and putting it in the hands of elected representatives was better. The Brotherhood doesn't hold this view.
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1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
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1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #25  
Old 08-16-2013, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kerry View Post
I disagree. We have a system that legitimates law by voting in a legislature. Everyone can discuss and interpret ancient laws, but ultimately the legislature makes law by an act of its will. It's the substitute of combined human wills for God's will. That's the central difference between theocracy and democracy.

Obviously, there is a connection of some sort between previous laws and current laws. But a few hundred years ago, Westerners decided that leaving lawmaking in the hands of monarchs, priests and aristocrats was a bad idea and putting it in the hands of elected representatives was better. The Brotherhood doesn't hold this view.
Canada is still governed in the name of the Queen, even if it's really an autonomous democracy. Does it really matter whether the legislators claim their authority derives from the Queen, King, G-d, Messiah, or Tooth Fairy?
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  #26  
Old 08-16-2013, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by spdrun View Post
Canada is still governed in the name of the Queen, even if it's really an autonomous democracy. Does it really matter whether the legislators claim their authority derives from the Queen, King, G-d, Messiah, or Tooth Fairy?

You're missing my point. Legislators are not legitimate at all in theocracies. It's not a question of who authorizes legislators. It's a question of whether legislatures should exist at all.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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