The Debt Ceiling Is Coming! The Debt Ceiling is Coming! - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JB3 · #46 02-06-2014, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greazzer

I guess we are on two different sheets of music.

We spend, let's say $3T a year. We generate through taxes let's say $2T. That leaves us $1T in the hole. These are just round, make believe numbers for my example. That $1T is borrowed and not generated from taxes (at this point). That borrowing occurs through the sale of bonds and other debt instruements from uncle sam. Someone buys those bonds. Uncle Sam guarantees the payment of the principle and some interest over the course of so many years. We are simply taking "future" money to pay a current debt. It is the tax payers who are paying the interest and principle on those bonds. Assuming the above very rough and dirty scenario is accurate, let's assume the writer of that article was accurate, that is, we could start selling off our national treasures. So, let's sell the white house. China buys it for $1T. The government can take that money and buy it's own bonds or use it as backing to convince some other party to buy our bonds. The current asset, e.g., white house, is now gone. We are no longer kicking the can down the road by tapping into future money being spent now. Plus, keep in mind that our currency will slide off the table as the world's reserve currency. Anywho, someone was right that this topic having been discussed to-death forever. It doesn't matter. On the one side, folks say the debt is bad and they use Detroit or bankruptcy court or whatever as their proof. On the other side, folks say the US can incur as much as it wants and it will never matter. Coincidentially, the one side is also republican and the other drank some cool aid. At this point, I only feel bad for my children who are going to be stuck with this situation at some point. Personally, I could care less. The voters got what they wanted, but I doubt the voting majority will ever pay the tab.

I'm not cnvinced its such a bad thing were the us dollar stop being the world currency standard. It might help our fiscal policies if the dollar had to measure up to something else

MS Fowler · #47 02-06-2014, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

I'm not cnvinced its such a bad thing were the us dollar stop being the world currency standard. It might help our fiscal policies if the dollar had to measure up to something else

It might. But the short term would be dreadful. I think it is better to plan a way to exit our financial woes than to be overtaken by events, Although "victimhood" is always politically appealing...

JB3 · #48 02-06-2014, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

It might. But the short term would be dreadful. I think it is better to plan a way to exit our financial woes than to be overtaken by events, Although "victimhood" is always politically appealing...

I don't think we should hold our breath waiting. In my opinion, it is ultimately inevitible that the dollar get dropped as an international currency, and I'm not sure it deserves the keep that status anyway since we as a nation have allowed such a massive defecit spending nightmare to grow. I don't see anything short of a default stopping the growth of debt.

There is too much economic theory tied up in our government, and not enough economic sense. Maybe the loss of the world currency standard can be the jolt we need short of total default to start doing something about this problem

Botnst · #49 02-06-2014, 08:36 AM

Ultimately the sun will go out and everything will die. So I'm going to quit working and eat lotus flowers.

JB3 · #50 02-06-2014, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Ultimately the sun will go out and everything will die. So I'm going to quit working and eat lotus flowers.

I agree, its nice to be above it all.

Unfortunately for some of us, the spiralling national debt is something to worry about. I have money worked long and hard for invested in government bonds. If the us government defaults, I'm a person who loses their money, so Its harder for me to poke fun at the situation with the standard sarcasm you so enjoy.

Still, I guess its one way to deal with the situation

greazzer · #51 02-06-2014, 11:47 AM

I really doubt the "average" American will be able to take the blow caused by some sort of major economic downfall. Setting aside the "meltdown" of 2008, I am thinking there will be real calamity when the ..it hits the fan. I saw on YouTube 100's of folks storming a welfare office in Dallas, and other places to be placed on some sort of housing list. It was pretty close to a riot. That is a tiny, microscopic drop in the bucket compared to real shortages, real rationing, ... stuff my parents went through during the depression and WW2. I did not really see anything close to that during 2008. Actually, my neighborhood stayed the same, folks got their new cars, and it was just news on the TV.

So, time will tell. I really do feel bad for my kids.

Botnst · #52 02-06-2014, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JB3

I agree, its nice to be above it all.

Unfortunately for some of us, the spiralling national debt is something to worry about. I have money worked long and hard for invested in government bonds. If the us government defaults, I'm a person who loses their money, so Its harder for me to poke fun at the situation with the standard sarcasm you so enjoy.

Still, I guess its one way to deal with the situation

It's what happened to Soviet citizens when the USSR collapsed. Their pension didn't change though prices rose to equilibrate with international prices. Or the Argentinians during the junta saw their savings evaporate with run-away inflation that changed the value of the peso hourly.

It will happen here with retirees such as you and I paying for it. Let's say we have carefully saved for retirement and have a million bucks in gov bonds. Inflation increases to 10% while our bonds appreciate at 1%. We bleed to death slowly. Then the gov decides, due to inflation, to devalue the currency 10%. We still have a million but now it's worth 900k.

INSIDIOUS · #53 02-06-2014, 06:56 PM

Last go around the shutdown delivered a big hit to science. Lost work. Lost opportunity. setbacks all over the place. Horrific unconscionable waste. Hope the voters understand and remember this.

Botnst · #54 02-06-2014, 07:49 PM

As much as voters understand science they will support its funding.

INSIDIOUS · #55 02-06-2014, 07:54 PM

Yup ... gonna be problematic

Hatterasguy · #56 02-06-2014, 10:18 PM

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Winston Churchill

Churchill blamed the "masses" and weak politicians for the treatment of Germany after WW1 which caused the next one.

As he said, before this democracy a few statesmen would sit around a table and sort it out. The masses may not like it but they understood the problem better than the masses.

I mean really do we expect the average IQ moron to understand how to balance the government budget? They can't even balance their own checkbook. So they will vote for whoever they "like" or who promises them something for nothing.

What we need in this country is a strong leader who is able to persuade the masses to do something that is good for them even though they might not like it at first.

Jim B. · #57 02-06-2014, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Winston Churchill

Churchill blamed the "masses" and weak politicians for the treatment of Germany after WW1 which caused the next one.

As he said, before this democracy a few statesmen would sit around a table and sort it out. The masses may not like it but they understood the problem better than the masses.

I mean really do we expect the average IQ moron to understand how to balance the government budget? They can't even balance their own checkbook. So they will vote for whoever they "like" or who promises them something for nothing.

What we need in this country is a strong leader who is able to persuade the masses to do something that is good for them even though they might not like it at first.

^^^ Jim B. likes this.

Botnst · #58 02-06-2014, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hatterasguy

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."

Winston Churchill

Churchill blamed the "masses" and weak politicians for the treatment of Germany after WW1 which caused the next one.

As he said, before this democracy a few statesmen would sit around a table and sort it out. The masses may not like it but they understood the problem better than the masses.

I mean really do we expect the average IQ moron to understand how to balance the government budget? They can't even balance their own checkbook. So they will vote for whoever they "like" or who promises them something for nothing.

What we need in this country is a strong leader who is able to persuade the masses to do something that is good for them even though they might not like it at first.

Another observation of Churchill's (that moderates the above): Democracy is the worst possible form of government. Except for all the others.

In other words, despite the immoral, avaricious, pigheaded stupidity of the plebeians in a democracy, every other form of government is worse.

MS Fowler · #59 02-07-2014, 03:43 AM

This argument goes back ( at least) to the founding of this country. Always had those who favor the collective wisdom of the masses to the elite gentlemen/statesmen. However, in order for the masses to govern themselves, they require information; not "spin".

Idle · #60 02-07-2014, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MS Fowler

This argument goes back ( at least) to the founding of this country. Always had those who favor the collective wisdom of the masses to the elite gentlemen/statesmen. However, in order for the masses to govern themselves, they require information; not "spin".

In the 60's and 70's there were two major newspapers in Dallas. The Dallas Morning News and The Dallas Times-Herald. The Morning News was the conservative newspaper and made no bones about it. It was impossible to read a news story that was not filled with conservative opinion.

The Times-Herald was killing them in circulation, but the Morning News made more profit since it could charge more for advertising due to it's better demos.

Then a change was made in the Morning News. The old guard was out and a new bunch took over. All the spin was gone and readership shot up since people saw they were getting more information on a story and no opinion.

The Morning News then bought out the Times-Hearld, sold off all of it's equipment and tore down it's building. Today it is a parking lot. Some people feared the worst, thinking there would be a return to the old ways of the 60's but if anything the Morning News became more balanced. It had to if it wanted to pick up the Times-Hearld readers.

Dallas today is nothing like it was during the 60's. It is booming in almost every sector and their is no longer a good-'ol boy network that controls everything which included the information printed in The Dallas Morning News.

But Dallas did not really take off as a world class city until people started taking voting in a serious manner, and they needed accurate information to do this. Once they had it things got better for everyone.