Another Ruby Ridge/Waco event brewing - Page 53 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Botnst · #**781** 04-30-2014, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

When were the canals dug? I doubt the Irish considered themselves free people at the time.

I could not read their minds today nor could I down through time.

kerry · #**782** 04-30-2014, 05:59 PM

I'll do it for you then. The Irish didn't like being ruled by the English and it's highly unlikely they would call that condition 'freedom'. Unless we're talking about the minority Protestant Irish.

cmac2012 · #**783** 04-30-2014, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

That's interesting. Wage slaves sell for less than chattel slaves. Maybe it was a matter of cutting out the middle man (the slave owner).

I can't find it and it's only a line from a movie but it was interesting. Two upper crust Brits were talking about the issue of slave labor and one fellow said approx:

"I think we're had this whole business of slavery all wrong. Instead of owning them, housing them, and feeding them, which is a bit like maintaining a mistress, we should rather treat them like prostitutes, where we pay them for our pleasure and then turn them out to fend for themselves."

kerry · #**784** 04-30-2014, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I can't find it and it's only a line from a movie but it was interesting. Two upper crust Brits were talking about the issue of slave labor and one fellow said approx:

"I think we're had this whole business of slavery all wrong. Instead of owning them, housing them, and feeding them, which is a bit like maintaining a mistress, we should rather treat them like prostitutes, where we pay them for our pleasure and then turn them out to fend for themselves."

Yes. I think the whole NO canal digging is a good example of the difference in attitude between owning something and renting something. The chattel slave owners weren't willing to risk their property but the wage slave renters were, since they weren't damaging property they owned, only damaging property they rented. It's one of those cases where it becomes clear that labor under capitalism can sometimes be worse than labor under slavery. Better to be a mistress than a prostitute sometimes.

INSIDIOUS · #**785** 04-30-2014, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

By accepting your term in discussion I give it legitimacy. I won't do it.

Can we hold you to this on a flip around with your terms?

Botnst · #**786** 04-30-2014, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by INSIDIOUS

Can we hold you to this on a flip around with your terms?

Are you a free man?

Botnst · #**787** 04-30-2014, 06:57 PM

Ref to Irish in building one of the many NOLA canals.

New Basin Canal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Idle · #**788** 04-30-2014, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Yes. I think the whole NO canal digging is a good example of the difference in attitude between owning something and renting something. The chattel slave owners weren't willing to risk their property but the wage slave renters were, since they weren't damaging property they owned, only damaging property they rented. It's one of those cases where it becomes clear that labor under capitalism can sometimes be worse than labor under slavery. Better to be a mistress than a prostitute sometimes.

Hence the old saying: Work it like a rented mule.

aklim · #**789** 04-30-2014, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cmac2012

I don't see it as an issue of feeling guilty but as one of justice.

Affirmative action shouldn't go on forever and coming to some accurate idea of how long such programs ideally should be in place would be impossible. Of course some feel they shouldn't be used at all.

My feeling is that no one is served by having a sort of permanent underclass. Problems of crime and spreading slums likely result from that.

Call it what you will but the point remains that YOU didn't do that minority any injustice. It wasn't YOU that enslaved my so and so. Therefore, how can you make any amends or anything else? If I stole your car, justice demands I not only make restitution but pay a deterrent. But if my grandfather destroyed your grandfather's car, why is it my business or responsibility to make it right?

Giving a benefit is easy. Taking it back, not so easy. But if you say the length cannot be determined, how can you know when to take it back? Assuming you could, that is. Further to that, now that the pendulum has swung the other way, it not only creates friction but it reinforces the simple fact that the minority cannot perform without a handicap.

I agree but how to fix that? Eons back, the minimum education was nothing. Today, it is much harder even to get a job without a college degree. As the bar gets raised, there will always be an underclass. Even if everyone had a college degree, you will still have an underclass since the degree holders will now be it. To be in middle class, you now must have a PhD. To be in the upper class you must have 3 PhDs and so on.

kerry · #**790** 04-30-2014, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

By accepting your term in discussion I give it legitimacy. I won't do it.

Yes, I know. That's why I called it the ostrich strategy.

Botnst · #**791** 04-30-2014, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Yes, I know. That's why I called it the ostrich strategy.

Your labeling strategy is insulting and demeaning and intentionally so.

you could be courteous, accept that we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion, and call it nothing.

kerry · #**792** 04-30-2014, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Your labeling strategy is insulting and demeaning and intentionally so.

you could be courteous, accept that we have an irreconcilable difference of opinion, and call it nothing.

It's really no different than saying you have a opposing view to mine so I won't discuss matters with you.

Botnst · #**793** 04-30-2014, 10:57 PM

That's an opinion expressed without discourtesy. Good job.

Diesel911 · #**794** 05-01-2014, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kerry

Why slavery disappeared is a bit of a puzzle to me. I've heard the argument that industrialization made it unnecessary. But that argument by itself I don't find convincing. What's cheaper about having free workers in a factory as compared to slaves? The best argument I can imagine is that factories are associated with cities and housing slaves in cities is expensive compared to housing slaves on a large farm. But that argument isn't completely convincing either since workers still have to pay for housing in cities.
On a macro scale, I can see where allowing free class movement from the lower classes to the upper classes is preferable since it allows smart people, who would otherwise be slaves, to move beyond the level of simple manual labor and contribute to the economy in more complex ways. So if the slave class gets educated, the economy might find a new Einstein or a new Bill Gates. But the micro process of that transition from chattel slavery to wage slavery eludes me. Do people know of specific examples where a slave owner switched from being a chattel slave owner to being a wage slave owner? I don't know of any.

If you consider Communism to have enslaved the People to the State then there were industrial Slaves.

I have read that here in the USA White Laborers did not want Slavery because they did not want to compete with Slaves in the Work Force so they supported freeing the Slaves. But, that did not mean the accepted them as being Human Beings on the same level as them and they did not want Blacks to have the same equality and rights as they did.

Diesel911 · #**795** 05-01-2014, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Botnst

Slave owners didn't want to risk their expensive property at the compensation rate offered so they refused to rent them out. It was cheaper for the city to contract Irish labor.

Slave Owners did indeed rent out their Slaves. Ex-Slave Fredrick Douglass was sort of rented out like that. He was sent to work as a Ship Wright and the Wages earned were given to his Master.
The Master that sent Fredrick Douglass off to work as a Ship Write had been given Fredrick by His Brother.
Previous to that Fredrick had been sent to another Plantation and that Plantation owner was supposed to get Him back in line as He had been considered uncoperative.

Fredrick Douglass mentioned in His book that being Rented Out to another Plantation was often done as Puhishment; taking the Salve away from friends and Family.