The value of Higher Ed - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Benzasaurus · #31 07-27-2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

Part of what I got from the Article is that the lower income Students are going to suffer from a lack of Money to purchase situations and things needed to prepare them to even get on the list for financial aid.

I agree, that is a major problem. It's basically institutional classism. You can't look for well-travelled students as an admission criteria and I disagree with the practice. But most of the stuff they seem to look for is free or cheap for the student to pursue so far as extracurriculars—there just has to be a backbreaking amount of them.

Students at Yale are really very bright, but they are all jockeying for status all the same. And they're all concerned with how their peers perceive them, and so they act accordingly e.g. pretending not to work but working all the time; pretending to party all the time, networking to be accrue status and be well-liked, etc. There are also very confident students that don't need that extra approval of their peers or the profs, and who do what they want because they want to. The really outspoken ones are rare, but I'd say lots (usually upper years) are much more self aware than the article puts across.

That the undergrads work constantly differentiates them from other college grad cohorts. For years they have unintentionally trained themselves for the break of dawn to midnight investment banker jobs. That's why JP Morgan et al come to campus to woo them and wow them with their stories of high stakes capitalism and adventure.

But like any other college cohort they all totally lack life experience. They'll grow out of it the way everyone else does, except for the ones who are too emotionally stunted to start with who are very rare (and I've taught the grown-up versions when I taught masters students at Yale). They're not so different in terms of all the things people go through growing up, but they do work much, much harder than most college students.

Elchiv is right, some of them definitely are incredibly miserable already and have the potential to become more miserable moving forward. But university classes can't fix perfectionism so it's wrong to blame universities for it.

So far as what the article says about Ivy's being research driven and so teaching falls slack... that's true and it's not. Generally, professors who don't care about teaching give so much responsibility to TFs that TFs do the teaching in discussion and lab groups while the profs just lecture once or twice a week. Structurally all the classes look like that, but you know when you're doing the lion's share of explaining things and fielding questions. TFs are a mixed bag, like profs, but seeing as we don't have tenure yet I think we're more incentivized to do a good job.

Personally, I try to create a relaxed environment for my students where they feel less pressure to give the perfect student performance. And I have actually asked one outside of class whether they were taking on too much work because they seemed to have a lot to do (read, always overprepared and a little tightly wound). The response was, "It's ok, it's my senior year and I just want to finish on a high note."

Diesel911 · #32 07-27-2014, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

On the first day, their experience is in their past company. Get to know this one first then make changes as necessary. I am all for your suggestions after you get a feel of this company and why we do what we do.

So life is good. Motivated and has some track record of being able to stick to a job instead of wandering around. How is that bad?

You are correct. You need to know what is going on in your new Company before you comment on it.

aklim · #33 07-27-2014, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tbomachines

No, you go into a job with outside experience and observe the shortcomings and gaps in their processes using your experience. I started a new job in April and within a month had sealed up 3-4 gaps in their processes, and introduced a couple other ideas on how they can make more revenue. It's pretty much expected that a new hire does that in my world.

Different worlds, I suppose. What I am doing now and the last business before sale, you have to understand your product and the people referring to you and you can't do that in less than a month. 2 hires that tried to shortcut the process ended up costing me money and them commission and later on, their job. It is difficult for us to hire someone who is in the industry since they probably have a non-compete clause. I know I do. So if you can't poach from your competitors, you pretty much have to hire someone outside who probably doesn't know the product as well as your twist. My last hire was from the hotel industry which is nowhere close to what we are doing. Took a week of training for her to know the database and enough of what we are doing to understand how to enter the data and track what is going on, payroll, etc, etc.

aklim · #34 07-27-2014, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzasaurus

Personally, I try to create a relaxed environment for my students where they feel less pressure to give the perfect student performance. And I have actually asked one outside of class whether they were taking on too much work because they seemed to have a lot to do (read, always overprepared and a little tightly wound). The response was, "It's ok, it's my senior year and I just want to finish on a high note."

But is the real world out there going to be as nurturing as you? What happens when they hit the real world and the boss demands standards they are not used to? School is easy. You can do the class over. You can make bargains with the instructor. When I lose a client, there is little chance of a "do over". He might not care about my bad day, the fight with the wife, the spoiled brat I have for a child, etc, etc.

strelnik · #35 07-27-2014, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benzasaurus

I think the article gets a lot of things right except for the class warfare; that's on more than just the Ivys.

And there is a hella ton of financial aid for needs based cases at various Ivys. Here's an example: Yale "Factsheet" | Office of Institutional Research. They'll give 65k a year if you qualify. A big portion of that will probably just be for tuition though, at their valuation.

Students are definitely trained to be timid, but that also results from any upbringing that prioritizes earning capacity above fulfillment. Lots of them are not the scared little animals the article makes out, those are the worst off. I think for lots of them the rat race starts at college and so does their rejection of it. They do see it for what it is but they just don't see any other way forward through life. They have no alternative role models because our society on the whole privileges earning capacity over fulfillment.

I think you are right.

I'm an example of that, the poor kid who got the PhD fellowship for Georgetown.

Since I also had the GI Ill later, I left and finished grad school at U-M Ann Arbor.

The atmosphere of Gtown was just not real. It was more about people impressing each other like a bunch of dilettantish hipsters.

I did meet two profs there who were definitely worth their salt, but Hoyaville is definitely for the upper crust that want to keep the next generation connected, and keep the old money in control.

Not surprising, all things considered but definitely not my cup of tea.

I have not looked back or regretted my decisions. And life has turned out pretty well since I have depended 0on no one but myself, good or bad.

aklim · #36 07-27-2014, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

It was more about people impressing each other like a bunch of dilettantish hipsters.

I did meet two profs there who were definitely worth their salt, but Hoyaville is definitely for the upper crust that want to keep the next generation connected, and keep the old money in control.

And life has turned out pretty well since I have depended 0on no one but myself, good or bad.

Isn't that life though? We have to impress our bosses for raises, to get the job, etc, etc? When a guy goes to pick up a girl, he has to impress her that she needs to sleep with him. When I go to discuss business with a client, I have to dress up, speak politely, etc, etc. I can't go in dirty torn jeans and a "wife beater" for a shirt. I can't put my feet up on his table and scratch the family jewels. I have to convince him that I am the best man for whatever it is he is looking for. When I am interviewing for a job, same thing. I try limit my impressing of people to 2 classes. Work and girls I want to sleep with.

Of course it is. I wouldn't want to see my hard work squandered away by someone else.

MTUpower · #37 07-27-2014, 09:55 PM

Elite private colleges will never allow their students’ economic profile to mirror that of society as a whole.

The education system has to act to mitigate the class system, not reproduce it. Affirmative action should be based on class instead of race, a change that many have been advocating for years.

aklim · #38 07-27-2014, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

Elite private colleges will never allow their students’ economic profile to mirror that of society as a whole.

The education system has to act to mitigate the class system, not reproduce it. Affirmative action should be based on class instead of race, a change that many have been advocating for years.

Society as a group is made out of bad, decent and a few good people, economically speaking. I'm not a parent. Assuming you are, which group would you prefer your child be in? IF I am paying more for my son to go to an elite college, why would I want him to come out average? If I were a HS dropout, I would certainly want him to be no less than a college grad with a bright future. Sorry, egalitarian ideas be damned when it comes to my kid. IF I were a parent, I would definitely want my kid to surpass me. I know my Dad does.

elchivito · #39 07-27-2014, 11:05 PM

A brief perusal of the book I mentioned earlier will indicate that "Ivy League" schools are no guarantee of a "better" education.

aklim · #40 07-27-2014, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elchivito

A brief perusal of the book I mentioned earlier will indicate that "Ivy League" schools are no guarantee of a "better" education.

There are no guarantees in life. As they say, if you want a guarantee, get a toaster. So aside from guarantees, if you want to talk of a better education, how are we defining better and what are the odds of that happening? I can personally state that my couple of years in an accredited backwater school compared with a couple of years at a private (Non-Ivy League) college showed a massive difference in student attitude especially with the upperclassmen.

All that aside, who do you think has a better chance of getting an interview? Me with a degree from Backwater State U or you from Harvard, all things equal? Considering that there was something written a while ago about kids with unusual and hard to pronounce names not getting a good look, what would you think? All they did was change the name on the resume from Tom to say Alshinatipup and they get more looks with Tom, what do you think?

Skid Row Joe · #41 07-27-2014, 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diesel911

When you graduate form the Ivy League Schools and do well the Jobs come looking for You if you Education was about something the Business or Science can use.

Also Parents of Wealthy Kids want their Children to know enough to not only hang on to the Wealth that they have but able to increase that Wealth.

And, in fact Wealth can easily be lost.
If I believe what the Article is saying Business is evidently hiring a bunch of highly trained and motivated Ivy League Drones.

The article frequently mentions how the Students seem to be confused about why and what they are doing. What the Article does not mention is that the Students may be confused but despite that they are still making the grade in College. Meaning that despite the supposed confusion they are still able to successfully push themselves to make the
Grade. That is a skill all by itself.

When you hire one of those Graduates you know what you are getting more then you do with someone from an unknown College. You are getting someone driven and trained to succeed even if they don't have a clear reason why.
You are also getting someone from an upper class culture.

Where are you getting your information, that you seem to believe?

You cited NO links, nor personal examples.

Diesel911 · #42 07-29-2014, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MTUpower

Elite private colleges will never allow their students’ economic profile to mirror that of society as a whole.

The education system has to act to mitigate the class system, not reproduce it. Affirmative action should be based on class instead of race, a change that many have been advocating for years.

Most of it simply has to do with Who is funding the Universities.

The Affluent are contributing Money to those Universities not as a Gifts but as an Investment in their Kids Education. They don’t want their Investment shared with just anyone.

The other part of it is that if a degree could be had by anyone at those Universities then a Degree there would not have the same interest to potential Employers.

Diesel911 · #43 07-29-2014, 09:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skid Row Joe

Where are you getting your information, that you seem to believe?

You cited NO links, nor personal examples.

You are correct. Everything I said is entirely a guess and has no connection to real life. It is all just a fantasy; what I want to believe is true.
None of it has to do with My Life Experiences or Common Sense.

Diesel911 · #44 07-29-2014, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aklim

There are no guarantees in life. As they say, if you want a guarantee, get a toaster. So aside from guarantees, if you want to talk of a better education, how are we defining better and what are the odds of that happening? I can personally state that my couple of years in an accredited backwater school compared with a couple of years at a private (Non-Ivy League) college showed a massive difference in student attitude especially with the upperclassmen.

All that aside, who do you think has a better chance of getting an interview? Me with a degree from Backwater State U or you from Harvard, all things equal? Considering that there was something written a while ago about kids with unusual and hard to pronounce names not getting a good look, what would you think? All they did was change the name on the resume from Tom to say Alshinatipup and they get more looks with Tom, what do you think?

People that are considered Good Looking are also more likely to be hired.

Botnst · #45 07-29-2014, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by strelnik

I think you are right.

I'm an example of that, the poor kid who got the PhD fellowship for Georgetown.

Since I also had the GI Ill later, I left and finished grad school at U-M Ann Arbor.

The atmosphere of Gtown was just not real. It was more about people impressing each other like a bunch of dilettantish hipsters.

I did meet two profs there who were definitely worth their salt, but Hoyaville is definitely for the upper crust that want to keep the next generation connected, and keep the old money in control.

Not surprising, all things considered but definitely not my cup of tea.

I have not looked back or regretted my decisions. And life has turned out pretty well since I have depended 0on no one but myself, good or bad.

5 stars.