More about where your tax dollars really go...
 

More poetic wisdom concerning the current pathetic condition of our government handout (aka welfare) system:


Excerpted from Neal's 'daily program notes' at www.boortz.com

________

THE POOR, POOR PITIFUL POOR

Some of you listeners remember the conversation I had with “Cheyenne” yesterday. She has two kids, not married, and makes about $14,000. She pays absolutely no income tax whatsoever and gets about $4,000 from the government! --- that sickening Earned Income Tax Credit nonsense. What’s more, she sees absolutely nothing wrong with her scenario … after all, her parents pay taxes. ( :rolleyes: ) I know many of you remember the conversation because I’ve received quite a few messages telling me what a heartless slob I am for challenging Cheyenne’s claim to someone else’s property.

My guess is that for most of her life Cheyenne has been surrounded by a bunch of supportive friends telling her that none of this is her fault.. You have two kids you can’t support? Well, that’s not your fault … blame their father(s). You don’t make enough money? That greedy boss of yours is trying to just keep it all for himself.

So – finally someone spells it out. This lady made choices, and those choices led to her being a single mother of two with no marketable job skills …. And now she feels entitled to someone else’s money.

I took a few minutes to script a little meeting between a "Cheyenne-type citizen" and her congressman. See what you think.

(As the curtain rises we find Congressman Dewey Cheatem sitting behind his desk in his home district office. Ima Whiner, one of his constituents, has wormed her way into an appointment with Congressman Cheatem to voice some concerns.)


Yes, Ms. Whiner, what can I do for you?

I need some help. I just can’t make ends meet any more.

What kind of help?

Money. I need some money. I just don’t make enough money to support my family.

Your family? Tell me about them.

I have two kids. Seven and ten.

What does your husband do?

I’m not married.

Divorced?

No. I’m just not married.

Does the kid’s father help to support them?

No, neither one of them do.

Neither one of them?

Yeah. They have different fathers.

What do you do for a living?

Nails.

You do nails?

Yeah, you know, nails. I do nails at Nail Fantasy at the mall.

How much money do you make doing nails.

Not enough. I make about $14,000 a year.

How much education do you have?

I like finished high school, you know, but college just wasn’t for me. I wanted a new car, you know, and I needed to go to work to get the money for payments.

Your oldest child is ten. How old are you?

I’m 26.

OK .. what do you want from me? Why did you come see me today?

I need more money. I know there must be some sort of like government checks I can get. I keep hearing about people getting checks for all sorts of things. I want a check.

With your income, you don’t pay income taxes, do you?

No, but I have payroll taxes … and I should get some of that money back. Other people are getting checks. I want a check.

Wait a minute --- I have something here that might help you.

(Congressman Cheatem reaches into his desk drawer and pulls out a .38 caliber revolver – he pushes it across the desk to Ima.)

Do you know what this is?

It’s a gun.

Can you use one?

Yeah, my first baby’s daddy showed me how.

OK then. I want you to take this gun, go find someone who has been more responsible with their life than you have, and I want you to use this gun to rob them. That way you should be able to get the money you say you need.

Rob them? I can’t just walk up to someone and rob them! Are you crazy?

Why can’t you?

Because that’s, you know, illegal. It’s, like, illegal! I could get caught and they could put me in jail!

But you’re here asking me for a check! What if there was some sort of a government check you could get, where do you think that money would come from?

I don’t know. The government?

Sure, the government. But where does the government get its money?

The taxpayers, I guess.

Yeah, the taxpayers. So you want me to arrange for some money to be taken from these taxpayers and given to you, right?

Well, other people are getting checks. Why can’t I get one?

Why don’t you just take this gun and go get some!

I can’t!

You mean you won’t. You won’t pick up this gun and go take someone else’s money, but you feel perfectly comfortable coming into my office and asking me to, right?

What do you mean?

Well just how in the hell do you think we get the money you want us to give to you? Do you think these people just come wandering in here with buckets of their money just begging us to find some irresponsible losers to give it to? Come on, girl? We take it, just like I suggested you take it. We take it at the point of a gun! We point that gun at those poor saps and we say “hand it over, or we’ll take every damn thing that you own.”

Well, everybody has to pay taxes!

You don’t!

I know, but that’s because, like , I don’t make enough money!

And whose fault is that?

It’s not my fault. I can’t help it if I just haven’t been as lucky as those other people.

Yeah, you can’t help it. You decided that you needed a new car and you couldn’t afford one if you were going to college, then you decided to get pregnant as a teenager by two different deadbeats who got between your legs and then out of your life … and it’s all someone else’s fault.

Hey! I don’t have to take that from you!

OK … calm down. (The Congressman puts the gun back in his desk drawer) You don’t need to use this gun. You don’t need to because we can.

Who’s “we?”

We .. the government. We can do what you can’t. Like I said, we can use this gun to take property from someone else … and I’ll see to it that some of that money gets to you. You’ll get your check.

Oh, thank you!

But there’s a catch here. You have to do something for me.

Sure! Anything!

No, no. Button your blouse up. That’s not what I had in mind. I have plenty of interns around here that would cause me a lot less grief than you would. What you have to do is get out there and register to vote … register to vote, and then remember just who it is that put that check in your pocket the next time an election rolls around.

No problem! I’ll do it, I promise!


_________
More and more people every day discover that they can "vote" themselves into a free ride. What will happen to people who actually EARN thier money, once these leeches become the majority?

Mike

Amen Mikemover!!!!

Does it really bother you that much Mike? I mean, anyone who pays less taxes than you is, in a sense, "stealing" from you. I know I'm paying a bit more than my fair share when that pothole at the end of my street gets fixed, but hey I drive on that road everyday. (Costs something like $5,000 to fix a pothole, dunno why) But what am I gonna say, don't drive over that pothole because you're not paying to have it fixed?

I know I know, you want absolutely zero taxes, but who will fix the potholes? I don't mind that people get welfare checks as long as they spend it at Kmart :)

BTW, does anyone find it strange that we're taxed in advance? Why can't we wait till the end of the year and then cut a check to the IRS? For everything else we pay after services or goods rendered, in the case of taxes we pay in advance, and we don't always get what we bargained for anyways!

mike,

why dont enough hard working decent "winners" step forward to vote these "losers" canidates out of the system?

if one system is so "wrong", it seems that the vast majority of those in the "right" would take their destined reigns (sp?) and dispell all the afore mentioned "losers" and their leaders.

I have NEVER said that I want zero taxes. I want FAIR and REASONABLE taxes. The progressive income tax system is NEITHER.

They devised the witholding system to take it out automatically and gradually so that it's not so obvious to you how much you are REALLY paying! It removes the "sticker shock" factor, and complicates the math with deductions, returns, etc., so that in the end, the average taxpayer doesn't even know how much they are paying! If you had to pay it in a lump sum every year, like many of us self-employed folks do, you'd be more likely to be VERY unhappy about it, like ME!

Mike

Mind if I field this one even though it wasn't addressed to me? I think it's a lack of a truly unified "independent" voice which detracts people from voting out our incumbents. A paradox in itself, for there is really no such thing as an independent voice which most people will agree with.

Most political battles are fought over what seems to be (in hindsight) minor points of the big picture. I still think both, Republicans and Democrats, agree on almost everything except when it comes to a few things... like a percentage point or two on taxes, abortion, or gun control. An independent who chooses to fight battles based on these few items finds that disagreeing with one side means favoring the other, but to be totally radical almost ensures that you go down in history as some kind of nutcase.

I could not agree more. I would like to see them stop the withholding and then have everyone pay up during April. I think there would be a revolt that would make the Revolutionary War look like a party.

i voted for perot, twice.

letterman's fall joke as told every year" "its a sure sign that fall has arrived, today in central park, i saw a nut gathering squirrels" :p

Mikemover: right on brotha!

Thrillbilly: In theory you are right. However, the liberal strategy is to take so many people off the tax roles that they once again have a dedictaed consticuancy (sp?) that will keep them in power forever. Don't laugh, the same strategy kept them in power fron FDR to Bill" no pants".

In fact, the reason for this "Tax Rebate" scheme is that since nearly half the working public pays no taxes, the only way to get the masses to vote for them is to cut them a check. That money comes from the "evil" rich and there a lot fewer rich than not, so it's OK?

Kuan: I for one don't aspire to pay zero taxes. However, I think pretty much everyone should pay their fair share. If you and I went to lunch and I said, "since you make 50% more money than I do, you should pay the check". Would you think that's fair...to you? Yet, the tax system in our country works that way.

A friend of mine sent me a clever story on how the tax system works. Ten men meet for dinner. When the check comes, someone gets the idea to split up the bill based on each person's income. The poorest 2 pay nothing and the rest pay anywhere from $6-$23. This works so well the decide to meet every day and pay the same way.

After a while, the restaraunt owner rewards their patronage by giving them a 20% discount. They are pretty happy with this. Using the same formula as before, the 2 who paid nothing still paid 0 and the rest paid between $5 and $18. Then the 2 guys who paid nothing said "we don't benefit at all from this, it discriminates agianst the poor". The next 2 who only saved $1 said" we only saved a buck, the richest guy saved five times more than us. This plan favors the rich".

They became so angry, they beat up the wealthiest guy and left. The next day, they all showed up except the wealthiest guy. They all looked at each other and said, "now what do we do? I can't make up for the difference". So they all had to leave.

I've heard that somewhere before...It's an EXCELLENT, very SIMPLE example that illustrates in idiot-proof terms how our current tax system is unfair, and WILL eventually FAIL.

Mike
:)

You know what, if I were the rich guy I'd be asking the owner where the hell are the cops? I pay extra money so I don't have to put up with these guys jumping me like that. I'm gonna go incorporate in the Cayman Islands. :)

from trading places
 

Louis: Looking good, Billy Ray!
Billy Ray: Feeling good, Louis

my pea brain works like this: a democracy is a nation administered by a group of elected officials that sets the rules (hopefully) according to the wishes of the majority.

as far as mr. bores eloquent example- if the woman meets the current program guidelines as set by the current leaders, then she has an absolute “right” to any funds the program provides under the guidelines.

everyone else >18 either endorsed the leaders that approved those standards, or didn’t organize enough votes to elect policymakers who better reflect their ideology.

don’t like it: work/vote to change it, or shutup/leave (look me up when you get to cayman!)



PS- “why the chicken crossed the road” as told by:

Pat Buchanan - to take a job from a decent hard working american.

MLK jr - i do not know why he crossed the road, and i may not be there to cross the road with you, but I look forward to the day when all chickens can cross the road without having their motives called into question

You Go! I am also a libertarian, and dont believe in income tax. My city, that the libertarians and conservatives lovingly call "Fayettenam" because of the borderline socialist tendancys of the city gov (we pay 10% in tax at a restaruant, hotel, or bar), is hell bent on dictating every Fayetnamese citizen's life.

I would love for a larger Libertarian presence to be here. If you arent a Green or a Liberal, you cant be elected here. The rest of NW Ark is conservative, and oddly enough its said that we have the largest population of millionares per capita in a region.

mikemover, you should send that to LP.org, self-government.org, or someone like that.

Later

Discussing these subjects here and elsewhere is one of many ways that I AM working to change things! Awareness is only the beginning, and I am always trying to make people WAKE UP. Our two-party system is VERY, VERY, VERY firmly established, and our electoral system is set up to HEAVILY favor incumbents, AND the two major parties, and the two major parties have NO intention of making it easy to change this situation, and you know it, I know it, everyone knows it...I don't know why more people aren't up-in-arms about it, but I AM! So I will not be shutting up about it any time soon.

Mike

We're in that season again folks. So I thought it would be fun to bring forth the spirit of another somnolent thread.

Here's who pays the bills.

Bot

And there's this, too.

That representative government belches a law or program is no guarantee of correct principles followed. The principle of self sufficiency and strength through adversity as desirable and necesary character assets are ignored by welfare programs as designed and administered by govt.

The absence of these traits creates dependency and depresses incentive resulting in a lack of, or false self worth. The presence of lowered self esteem/confidence coupled with low motivation, encourages sloth and other human nature flaws which can lead to other poor choices and their consequences, which, if unrecognized, will stain the lives of the rest of society.

The subject in question does have the legal claim to any "assistance" organized and ratified by govt., that much is true. "Right" has very little to do with it, though.

For the record, we live in a democratic republic as prescribed by the founding documents.

As long as you have majority rule the majority will write themselves a blank check, and push the burden on the minority that have the greater wealth. It's imposable to amend the Constitution to qualify voters because the majority would never support it. By being able to vote we can effect revolution, but a revolution that would recognize the power of elites would never fly. Therefore you be stuck until some unforeseen catastrophe forces a common resolve to turn over control to a minority and we'll start all over again.
I think the combination of state control, central partnership and smaller entrepreneurship that China is moving towards is where we'll ultimately be headed. In the end we'll merge into one.

So MikeM, I'm curious. What alternate system would you suggest? Flat tax?

We have a winner here.

Don't know about him but a flat tax with NO, ZERO, ZILCH loopholes would be good.

A national retail sales tax.

Anyone interested in tax reform MUST, MUST, MUST, MUST, MUST read this book!!!!:

The Fairtax Book, by Neal Boortz and Congressman John Linder

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060875410/102-6076938-4752914?v=glance&n=283155

Also, this website is very informative:

http://www.fairtax.org/

This system would be much more fair, INFINITELY more efficient, and also much more corruption/evasion-proof.

Mike

Frank Zappa wrote about that years ago. But until recently I have never heard it mentioned. I think it would be wonderfull to tax drug dealers and churches.

That's an interesting site, Mike. I'm curious how that system would work with foreign trade. How is tax generated on items made here and sent overseas and vice versa? It seems that this system is dependent upon rampant consumerism (which, admittedly, is our society today). What happens to revenues when people decide to buy only used materials? Wouldn't manufacturing suffer as a result? What about industries which are largely service in nature and don't really produce a material product. Would they in essence be tax-free?

Sorry about all the questions but it's the first time I've really looked at this tax system.

That's one of the ways that the "more fair" part applies: Services would be taxed as well. ANY goods or services sold at the retail level would be taxed. Private sales between individuals would not be affected.

Manufacturing in the US can't suffer much more than it currently does, don't you think?... Our oppressive tax structure is a big part of the problem. The national retail sales tax would also eliminate corporate taxes. A national retail sales tax would serve to discourage outsourcing and offshore tax shelters, and also would encourage foreign companies to invest in manufacturing and other endeavors in the US.

The IRS maintains over 100,000 employees. It also maintains huge office buildings and filing facilities in cities all over the US. Currently, there are over 56,000 pages of absurdly complex, indecipherable tax code, and this increases every year. Who pays for this monstrous juggernaut? You and I. Administering a national retail sales tax system would only require a fraction of this expenditure. Most of the infrastructure for collecting it already exists, since most states already collect sales taxes.

Individuals, businesses, and non-profits spent an estimated 6 billion hours complying with the federal income tax code in 2005, at an estimated cost of over $265 billion. This amounts to imposing a 22-cent tax compliance surcharge for every dollar the income tax system collects. This is a model of waste and inefficiency, if there ever was one.

Concerning used items... Used items cannot be bought and sold forever... Used cars, used electronics, used clothing... all of these things have a finite life span, and people have to buy "new" eventually. The end result of the retail sales tax system would be that most taxpayers would actually have slightly MORE money in their pockets, which translates to more spending at the retail level.

I could post endlessly trying explain this thing and answer questions..... I'm telling you, please READ THE FAIRTAX BOOK. It is extremely thorough, and will answer every question you have about the concept.

Mike

Here is a question about taxes. I earn $100 a month and it is taxed. When I buy something, it too is taxed. Kinda of a double tax, isn't it? If I save it and I earn something, it too is taxed. Where does it end?

Want to talk about fairness, look at #17 above.

B

PS Aklim, it ends at your grave. But that's only until they re-instate the death tax.

Exactly.

That is something else that the fairtax system would eliminate: The double and triple taxation of the same income that frequently occurs under the current system.

Mike

There's another BIG benefit of the FairTax system that never occurs to most folks: It would eliminate one of the largest problem-areas concerning illegal immigrants:

Currently we have millions of illegals living and working here, using our infrastructure, hospitals, schools, etc., while not paying a DIME of income tax. This costs YOU AND I money and time, and consumes resources that SHOULD be going to legitimate, tax-paying citizens.

Under a national retail sales tax, illegals would also be taxed--every time they go to the store and buy something! So finally, they would actually be contributing tax revenue, instead of leeching off it.

Mike

Anything would be better than our current system. I wonder how it would work if you buy something big, like a house? Would landlords have to collect rent tax?

Yes, real estate would be taxed like any other retail sale.

Rental property, rental cars, etc... all such things are considered a "service", and would be taxed as such.

Read the book, guys! It will answer any possible question you could have about the FairTax plan. There's also a very extensive "Frequently Asked Questions" page on the www.fairtax.org site.

Mike

Is the 23% FairTax higher or lower when compared to the income taxes people pay today?

Most people are paying that much or more today – much of it is just hidden from view.

There we have a problem. You see, what you are suggesting is going to create problems. Now Joe Politician will have to be honest and say 23% isn't enough. We need 24% to get more money and people will know enough to howl and scream. In our current system, you are taxed but you don't know it. So, they can shuffle and twist money around. Don't give you any new taxes but increase the old ones and you probably can't keep track of it.

I like it a lot. But it looks like a partisan fight ahead because I only see republicans as co-sponsors. There are two minor glitches. Dependant working teens will have to pay the tax but won't get a rebate, and seniors will have to pay the tax with funds withdrawn from their tax-free retirement accounts. I also don't quite understand how SSI would work, since your benefit is currently based on how much you pay in. But the good far outweighs the bad. I think it will improve this country's pathetic savings rate, and give people real control over their finances. I emailed my congressman asking him to support the FairTax Act.

And yes it will make any tax increases glaringly obvious, much to the dismay of some politicians.

Much as I'd like to see SSI die a quick death, the sales tax thingy would work just fine for that. Instead of the artificial distinction we have now between general revenues and social security and medicare, that could no longer be hidden, either. Instead, everything would go to the gov and have to be divided afterward. I rather like that, too.

Also, I see no problem with taxing seniors or teens. They benefit from society, they should pay. By one and only loophole (make that two) would be for food and meds. I'd make them tax-free so that po' folks wouldn't have to choose between meds and food.

It would also make the Food Stamp thing obsolete.

B

One thing I have noticed about how most of these discussions get started is that someone usually brings up welfare. That’s find and dandy because it does need an overhaul. The thing that gets me is no one ever seems to mention the other parts of the government that waste untold billions. For starters, lets try the military. Geez, talk about a sacred cow. Do we honestly believe that if we told the military and the contractors that we will no longer foot the bill for crap that does not work (B1, Sgt. York AAA …etc) and we will not pay for you to design a better toilet seat or hammer that the (put your country of choice here) will come strolling across our borders and set up shop? When Boeing designed the 707, they did it on their own dime and came out with a product that worked that that the air lines needed.

And how about government it’s self. Here is my scripted phone call to the senator.


Me :Hello? Mrs. Senator Screw the people and line my own pockets. Yes, I would like to know what the process would be to get a bill on the house / senate floor for consideration.

Mrs. Senator Screw the people and line my own pockets: Sure, I’d be happy to help you. What is the content of your proposed bill?

Me: I want the house / senate to vote me a raise like you do for your selves.

Me: Hello? ….. Hello? …. ****, must be a bad connection. I’ll call back.

*****the names have been changed to protect the guilty******


Do we really need that many Mike Browns and Chetokofs (sp?). You want to see congress fix SS, Welfare, healthcare .. etc. How about we just have them use the same crap we use instead of their own retirement plan, health care etc.

I have to wonder which wastes more money. Welfare or the military and the government it’s self.

There's a provision in the FairTax plan for that too, B. See the following:

http://www.fairtaxvolunteer.org/smart/faq-main.html#3

I'm tellin' you guys.... when it comes to tax collection systems, the FairTax plan is as perfect as it will ever get.

Read the book!......... :D

Mike

Hey Mike, level with us now. Is there a book somewhere that explains this?

Bot

PS That website makes an awful lot of sense. Thanks.

Entitlement programs, government waste, and military inefficiencies are entirely separate issues, and although they obviously should be dealt with, that is not the primary purpose of the FairTax plan.

The FairTax seeks to provide the same revenue that the government currently receives, while doing so in a manner that is fair to the individual taxpayer, saves the average taxpayer money, encourages domestic growth and productivity in the business sector, encourages foreign investment in the US, all while involving far less paperwork, virtually eliminating tax evasion, and with FAR less money and time being spent on compliance.

The bloated size and wasteful nature of our government absolutely should be dealt with. Implementing the FairTax plan would put us in an INFINITELY better position to start doing so.

Mike

Yes, I know I'm beating everyone over the head with the "read the book" thing..... ;)

But after doing so, I cannot even find the words to express to you how indisputably superior the FairTax plan is, and how obsolete, unfair, wasteful, and convoluted our current IRS-based system is. I have suspected as much for years, but the FairTax book provides irrefutable evidence of how deep the bull$h!t really is, and how badly we are getting screwed, in ways that most people haven't even thought of.

If you truly want to fully understand the depth of the problem, and how very broken the current system really is, and the near-perfection of the obvious solution (the FairTax), you simply MUST read this book.

Mike



Mike

I think everyone here should at least look over the www.fairtax.org website, and if it makes sense, let your senators and congressman know. I did.

Quote from Alexander Hamilton:
It is a single advantage of taxes on articles of consumption, that they contain in their own nature a security against excess.

Good advice. :)

Mike

hmmm, methinks there's something afoot...
 

"In order to advance the FairTax message, we encourage you to join one of these online chat/message board Internet sites for lively FairTax discussion and debate."

Yes, a lively discussion and debate, indeed.

Your point is?...............

Mike

You're part of the Vast Libertarian Conspiracy (hereafter referred to as VLC). It is a little-known fact that the VLC is trying to undermine centralization of executive authority through legal means.

Beware.

B

I'll try to keep my response to this accusation as brief and concise as possible:









"Yes."

Mike

Fairtax is compelling because its claims are compelling. Sure we'd like to believe that we'll all be better off and in a sense we do need that belief, but I wonder if we're really dreaming. For example, take the claim that removing corporate taxes and compliance costs will result in lower prices. Maybe initially, but in the long run after we get our initial 20% break, prices will eventually rise again. Everyone plays by the same set of rules. Take away those rules and replace them with one rule and they're all still playing by the same rule. There's no more, nor any less, competition than before the rule changes. We've just made the goalposts larger.

Nope, nope, nope. That's an oversimplification.

At the risk of being annoying (I'm sure it wouldn't be the first time!), I'll repeat myself:

Read the book.

It will be the best 20 bucks (or so) that you've spent in a long time.

Mike

Give up your military industrial compulsion, and maybe you'll achieve authenticity
 

Gah, as if either of you two had even the remotest connection to libertarianism...fakers.

Explain it to me. I don't want to read a bunch of promises, I want you to show me why I'm wrong, then I'll buy the book.