Lexus LS400 96 vs MB E320 95

[acha3]

What car do you preffer for a daily driver?
what car is more trouble free?

[sixto]

You picked a fine forum to ask this question

My $.02 - the W124 E320 was in it's last year of production so it's the best year to go if you like the W124. On the other hand, the platform was 10 years old at that point and it's going to give up something to the second year since redesign LS400. I think the LS400 is plain bigger.

Can't squeeze a 96 E320 into the budget?

Sixto
91 300SE
87 300SDL
83 300SD

[blackmercedes]

The Lexus is better in town. It's comfy and the car is so quiet, it's amazing. The V-8 has lots of power. The car is bullet-proof mechanically.

On the highway, it's steering is numb and the ride is floaty compared to the Mercedes.

These are competitors in the marketplace, but directed at different people. The Lexus is a true luxury car without much sporting pretensions. The Mercedes works better when things get twisty.

Parts and service costs are a wash. The Lexus will be in the shop less frequently, but when it's there, it's expensive. Really expensive!

The Lexus brand carries prestige now, and the Star carries some extra "high-end-cred", but not much more anymore.

As to finding a 1996 W210 E320, be careful. It has many of the same problems that the W124 has, and a few extra. It has some electrical glitches and cracking dashes. The early W210's had rack and pinion systems that weren't great with poor speed stability. On the other hand, the W210's don't have the strut suspensions of the W124 and handle REALLY well.

The Lexus vs. Mercedes debate boils down to which one you like to drive better. As an example, my wife likes the ES300 and the way it drives. I hate it. Different strokes for different folks.

[tkd_M119]

These are two cars of very differenct character. Though the Lexus is expensive to fix I do believe your odds for having fewer problems are much greater with the Lexus.

That being said, I do believe that the interior materials in the W124 to be of much higher quality. To me, the W124 feels more expensive. You don't get the feeling that corners were cut to meet price point. You'll notice that most Lexueses (sp?) past 90-100K have REALLY worn leather. But in general their electrical systems aren't strarting to biodegrade like some Mercedes are by that point.

You will find that the Lexus has more in the way of creature comforts. More comfort and convenience details have been thought out. I was intially suprised that the W124 only has a telescoping wheel - no tilt. Also I would have expected the wheel and seat to retract when exiting the car like there is in a Lexus or Infiniti. Lexus will have better NHV than a W124. Lexus has a better stereo system. Lexus will be more comfortable in traffic - softer seats, lighter accelerator pedal, better ergonomics, and better illumination of instumentation (no 3 watt bulbs here!). With the LS 400 are no engine wiring harness issues. Though I don't have hard evidence of it, based on my previous experience with Toyota products, I would wager that you'll have a much more durable AC system. I haven't heard any LS400 owners commonly complaining of $2000 AC evaporator replacements! I know the LS400 has a much more effective AC system. W124s AC is slow to respond. W124s AC system will only allow the driver to select either full blast or lowest setting on the fan speed. Other settings can only be engaged by the whim of the auto/AC mode (I guess the German Engineers are REAL control freaks!). The AC system also is noisy! The LS 400 transmission is much smoother shifting as well as much quicker to respond.

W124 to me is more "old school." If you sit in the two side by side you'll see what I mean. But as a result has much more personality. I think the LS400 IS a good car, just incredibly boring. I find the design to be too generic - as if it were an overgrown Toyota Camry. You'll notice that much of the hardware in a Lexus are off the shelf Toyota parts (personally I think this is a marketing mistake). I think the esthetics of the W124 are much more pleasing. The W124 has and will certainly age better than an LS400.

[savas]

I'll add that my brother-in-law has an LS400 that is approaching 350,000 miles and has had hardly anything go wrong. It has required little more than normal maintainance. While I like my '89 300E, I have spent a lot of money on repairs. Just replacing the AC when I moved form Seattle to Orlando cost over a couple of dimes. I always repair things even when it questionable so that adds to the cost.

The interior in my car is MB tex while his is leather. The w124 seats are in my opinion more comfortable and supportive. The straight line acceleration is great in the LS400, it doesn't really compare to my car.

Handling is not drasticly different. I think describing a regular stock 300E as sporty should be qualified as sporty for an older Mercedes sedan. If you plan to use it as a daily driver I don't think there is much of a difference.

My brother-in-law like his car because he never has to think about it, it's fast when he needs it to be and the general non gear-head public is impressed by it. I prefer the w124 because of its old-school character and looks.

[The Warden]

Isn't the LS400 more comparable to the S-class?

Originally posted by tkd_M119
I know the LS400 has a much more effective AC system.

Very interesting...I know a guy who's mom has a '95 LS400, and they've always complained that the fan doesn't put very much air out, even at full blast.

Granted I've never even sat in a 124 car, but my 123's a/c is livable except on extremely hot days...and this is with an R-134 conversion and a non-op condenser fan.

[Greg in Oz]

Originally posted by tkd_M119

Lexus will have better NHV than a W124. Lexus has better illumination of instumentation (no 3 watt bulbs here!). W124s AC is slow to respond. W124s AC system will only allow the driver to select either full blast or lowest setting on the fan speed. Other settings can only be engaged by the whim of the auto/AC mode (I guess the German Engineers are REAL control freaks!).

Without getting involved with the Lexus vs W124 comparison, I will address a couple of criticisms raised about the W124.

Regarding NVH, I believe it depends on which W124 you refer to. The M104 3.2 certainly can be a bit noisy in my experience. The M103 3 litre on the other hand is extremely smooth and quiet. Unfortunately it does not offer as much power as the M104.

Regarding the instrument illumination, I actually dislike the bright systems in most cars and appreciate the instrument illumination in my Benzes (which I actually run at less than full brilliance so I can concentrate on what is happening outside the car).

Regarding the AC issues, that applies only to the push-button automatic system you got in North America. Most of the rest of the world got a far simpler and superior (in my opinion), manual climate control system that apart from being reliable, allows independent temperature control of each side of the car at whatever fan speed you desire and also allows the air to be directed to whichever outlet or combination of outlets you choose.

We need to remember that the W124 was offered over a 10+ year period with a variety of engines, features and equipment. It could be anything from a humble four cylinder or diesel taxi through to a luxury V8 performance saloon and included elegant coupes and cabriolets as well as very practical wagons. How many other manufacturers (Toyota included) offered all that so successfully from one basic platform?

[jcyuhn]

I almost have trouble comparing these two cars. I own two 124s, so I have a few opinions about them . There are plenty of LS400s around the office; I occasionaly get a ride in one.

Both are fine cars, it's more a matter of which personality you prefer. The seats in the LS400 always felt a little bit funny to me; can't quite put my finger on exactly why. Perhaps a bit too much of a bulge in the lumbar area? As well, the big Lexus has absolutely no personality - close your eyes while riding in it, and you can't tell whether it's a Buick or Lexus - there's not a whit of dfferentiation.

I take some exception to the rule that all 124s have weak a/c. The later 124 cars which came with R134a from the factory have dramatically improved air conditioning systems. MB moved to a larger capacity Nippondenso compressor (10P15 -> 10P17), changed the conderser design, and used dual electric fans on the R134 124 chassis cars. Now, we haven't had any weather hotter than 101F yet this year in Dallas, but that wasn't even a challenge to my '93 300E. You still have to deal with biodegradable evaporators, but the thing definately blows cool when it's working right.

I concur with Greg in Oz regarding instrument illumination - the Lexus trickery is for people who don't understand what's important. The instruments should be as dimly illuminated as possible in order to avoid compromising your night vision. I don't think the Lexus system is very good at this.

I could ramble more, but I need to get back to work.

- JimY

[Ashman]

My biggest gripe of the lexus is that the designs change so much, the cars lose a lot fo value, and they look extremely old and outdated after only a few years. for instance, an early 90's lexus looks ugly and outdated compared to the new lexus, but a w124 still looks quite modern, even though the platform is at least 20 years old.

My w124 still looks better than most cars on the road today. And most people, think its a late 90's mercedes, not an early 90's mercedes.

Sure the w124 has some issues, but the driving experience for me is what counts. Overall, besides the AC evaporator, wiring harness (on some w124's), and the head gasket, the w124 is extremely reliable. My car only suffers from the AC evaporator issue, but since having the AC not blow cold is not a big deal to me, it is something that can wait in my book.

On another note, I wouldn't bother buying any lexus, because to me, its just a toyota with a different name. But a benz is still a benz (for the most part...)

It still boils down to personal preference. To me I'd take a 20 year old benz over a brand new lexus, but thats just me.

Alon

[tkd_M119]

When I mentioned weak A/C I did not mean it's ability to cool air - it does this just fine. Just that the North American systems had what I feel to be a rather limited interface as far as fan speed is concerned. Also the thermostat is in comparison, slow to change air temp. The interior fans are REALLY noisy when compared to the Lexus. The W124s the expense of replacing the AC evaporator is what really hurts. Now that it's warming up I see quite a few W124s (and there are A LOT of them in my neck of the woods) driving with the windows down.

I find the seat cushion abnormally short, especially for a car that comes from a country with so many people over 6 feet. I'm short and lack of thigh support is uncomfortable.

As far as NHV goes, it's more about road noise/wind noise (I drive a 92 400e everyday).

Anyhow I chose the W124 more for character than anything else. Though the LS 400 is a competent car, it's just far to generic for my tastes. I just wish the W124 had a bit more refinement.

A W124 is still a Benz, don't know about the W211!

First of all, what the heck is NHV?

Second, I just bought a '97 E420 and not to be disrespectful, but the 124 V8's don't even compare to the 210's. I drove 2 400e's, 3 E420's (124's), and a 500E and the thing that bothered me the most about all of them was that damn clunky four-speed auto. I cringed every time I kicked down that 500E thinking about the drivetrain being jerked around so hard. What good is a nice powerplant if the power doesn't get to where the rubber meets the road correctly?

Yeah, I know the 124 is old-school and has gobs of character and a bit more of a 'solid' feel to the interior, but the next generation (last generation) E is no comparison. In terms of a Lexus/Benz debate, the 210 is where all of the gaps got filled and the Benz pulls away for the win. Sorry old-timers, the 210 V8 takes the cake.

[engatwork]

NHV - noise, harshness, vibration

[Eberhard Weilke]

the W124 E320 was in it's last year of production so it's the best year to go if you like the W124

I doubt that. The best W 124 to get was the second series with the old grill and the door trim. Third series had more issues with rust and at least the diesel engines had more trouble.

A car around '92 is pretty much the best you can get. Two days ago I was sitting in a 300 TD which had 670 tkm on the clock. Most of it with a car trailer with a car on it. Still a good car, although the rubber bearings of the rear axle were done.

Kind regards
Eberhard

[tkd_M119]

I don't doubt that the engine and driveline is superior in the W210. I HATE the lack of refinement in regards to the transmission!!!!!!! In my perfect world I'd have a W210 engine & transmission in my W124.

I don't doubt that ergonomics are better in the W210 (seats are definitely more comfortable) and I'm sure there are more amenities as well. W124s are pretty spartan by today's standards. It's just that when I'm inside a W210, it screams CHEAP! I find the level of materials and design execution more appropriate if I were in a Honda Accord or Toyota Camry.

[speedy300Dturbo]

Ah, the beauty of older Mercedes. Superior interior build quality without excessive frills. No such thing anymore.