We had an interesting discussion regarding the death penalty recently, and that leads me to wonder if anyone would oppose the death penalty for Saddam if he is tried, convicted and sentenced to death. I wouldn't, but surely one of our friends ... perhaps someone in France ... would disagree. Would all those who oppose the death penalty, including the death penalty for Saddam, please step forward and be counted. Thank you.

"Thou shalt not kill" is a good rule. We should not deviate from that basic rule unless we have a good reason. To me, revenge does not qualify as a good enough reason, so I would need a good explanation of what would be accomplished by killing Saddam.

The DP is such a 'proven' deterence to criminal behavior, that I'm quite positive other petty tyrants will immediately straighten up and fly right. He'll become yet another martyr for the zealots on the other side to avenge. The cycle of violence will continue ad infinitum...

I'm against the death penalty. I wasn't always, though. I changed my mind on it a few years ago.

I do support it if the criminal poses a significant threat to others by staying alive.

I'm still deciding on Saddam. Sure, he'll be in prison for the rest of his life, but is there still a way for him to communicate orders to others who could carry out his evil wishes? Hmmmmmmmmm.

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The usual arguments for/against (deterrent v. expense or humanity) feel a little out of place in this case.

The deterrent effect is quite probably as irrelevant as can be. Positively zero dictators-to-be are going to have access to the power to do as they wish and not do so. So it seems the rationale becomes vengence or 'facing the crime' or something like that. I'm not sure how death allows one to appreciate the concequences of their actions. Realistically, it does nothing but the reverse, by allowing a quick and easy out for the convicted.

Consider the Princess Bride ('to the DEATH!' NO! 'To the LIFE') was the case not clearly (and humorously) made that requiring one to daily face the concequences of their actions was indeed worse for those who were spared an easy death?

For the record, without grounding in any particular religious tradition, I feel as though a civilized society ought to do better than to simply off those who betray the rules. 'paying the ultimate price', 'answering to a higher power', and similar explanations really do away with the reality that after the plungers fall in the injection chamber, there is no longer any opportunity for the offender to answer for anything. If that is the desire, then it should be offered.

One thing that troubles me about this particular case is the fact that most of the 'war crimes' people have been discussing of late happened before the first Persian Gulf War, much of which with the funding/arming/and blessing of the USA. The inconsistency of the foreign policy is certainly no excuse for the actions- but THAT flip flop will be the unwritten deterrent that goes forward from this... be careful what you let the US help you with. Later they just might hold you accountable for it while denying any part.

I read a piece yesterday on the dangers of allowing a 'winning' regime to try a 'losing' regime for war crimes, and some of the points were compelling. There have been times through history where the winning regime was much more ruthless than the losers. That did not make them right... So, I'm having a hard time with this case.

I would prefer that the death penalty be eliminated worldwide. However, I do not profess to know the societal norms of Iraqi culture, and would not impose my sentiments on them by force. If, after a fair discussion in a reasonable forum they decide that he is to die for his transgressions, then I suppose that is their right of self governance to make that decision. This is the view many are forced to take when considering the US. It's not just france that opposes the death penalty- we are one of the few so-called civilized nations that still hold on to this. But I do think that he should face his countrymen (and women) and NOT a US tribunal or guantanimo bay's land that juristiction forgot or anything else of our choosing. He ought to be handled as the Iraqis wish.

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...or at the very least, by the US's carefully selected handmaidens in the new and improved 'Iraqi' government.
I suspect the trial will be an excellent venue for Saddam and his legal defense to bring to light the long, bloody and mutually beneficial relationship with his erstwhile good buddy Uncle Sam. This will be especially embarassing for Bush the Elder and his corporate coterie. Which means the dude may just win himself a free trip to Cuba. Habeus corpus? He don't need no steenking habeus corpus...

Yeah, I've got that concern as well. There was a report today regarding a US official who commented that the Iraqis would most likely be given the authority to try Saddam, but that there were concerns that they'd have the sophistication to handle these very complicated charges. So they supposed that legal advisors would oversee the whole of the trial. As long as advisors are not thinly veiled puppetmasters, I guess it's not so bad, though it's awfully bold to tell a country you are going to allow to rule itself that nobody they can produce is sufficiently skilled to prosecute Saddam without american help.

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Despite my previous argument favoring death penalty, I'm really not a big proponent of it. Its one of those decisions that I think should be handled by the community and in this case, the community is still forming. They've been cowed and butchered for decades under that fellow with every dissenter or free-thinker imprisoned and/or tortured and/or killed. It wil take them some time to figure it our.

In the meantime, I think it would be helpful if Saddam volunteerd to help exhume bodies from mass graves and assisted in their identification. Perhaps the surviving loved ones could offer him words of encouragement from dawn to dusk as he labored with a short-handled shovel.

BTW did anybody notice the brilliant red flags being waved by some of the Baghdad demostrators celebrating Saddam's capture? I swear one had a hammer & sickle. Am I wrongsky?

Botnst

Saddam has done some terrible things, no doubt. But, he deserves to be fairly tried based on accepted laws. I am open as to what solution (where to try him, etc.) would be best in this case.

Z/djugurba/dculkin - any ideas on a real solution? What should he be charged with, if anything? What court should he be prosecuted in, if anywhere? Why?

I think since his crimes have harmed the people of Iraq the most, they are the most logical choice for an adjudicating body. But like Botnst points out, they really don't have the infrastructure as yet to make this possible. And, they have not had time to establish any leadership other than the *wink wink nod nod* local leaders the US favors. It will take a while for this to happen.
I'm not sure what other method would be fair to the victims.

Maybe he should be sent to the USA to appear on Texas Justice for February Sweeps. "Boy, what were yuu thainkin?" Or maybe the upcoming Survivor: Deposed Dictator Island.

It is probably possible to convene a UN sanctioned trial of some sort to permit Iraqi legal eagles to hold a trial that would be monitored for legitimacy (both for Iraqis and against US puppeteering). I don't think the US is keen on letting him out of its sight.... for good reason! So I'm quite curious to see what comes of this.

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How about we catch bin Laden and then make him and Saddam work behind the counter at Sonic Burger like those girls on "The Simple Life" show? Make them put on a uniform, wear hats, and be polite, or they get zapped by one of those stun belt things.

el Presidente asked "any ideas on a real solution? What should he be charged with, if anything? What court should he be prosecuted in, if anywhere? Why?" I would not profess to know the answers to those questions, but I would think the keys would be to keep the process open and to not overreach. Only charge him with crimes that can be proven beyond any doubt, based on unimpeachable evidence. There shouldn't be any shortage of criminal charges that can be brought against him.

Bush might actually be on the right track with this one. After all, there is a first time for everything.

I think that djugurba summed it up well a few posts back. I don't think I can improve on that.

I think djugurba's case for a UN monitored trial of his Iraqi peers is probably the best that can be hoped for at this juncture. How do you round up a representative jury and ensure that none of them has an axe to grind against the most (in)famous Iraqi alive today?

If the UN gets involved it will add some political legitimacy to the process, and virtually ensure that the media has access to the proceedings. If we can just keep the mainstream media's attentions fixed on covering the relevant details uncovered during the trial, we could have a real honest-to-goodness 'airing of dirty laundry' on an international scale. -- and that's a good thing.

This could potentially lead to a clear-eyed assessment of foreign policy as has been practiced for the past 60 years by a wide variety of countries. France, Germany, Russia, and of course the undisputed champeeeeen--the U.S. would be 'outed' as unindicted co-conspirators and willing participants in his crimes against humanity. We could bring to light our criminal dependency on propping up brutal thugs and potentates for short-term political and commercial objectives.

Of course I'm dreaming, since the media has long ago lost all sense of mission to expand our consciousness or promote debate, but hope springs eternal...

Would it be more cruel to keep Saddam caged for the rest of his life or to just kill him?

What is the goal of punishment?

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I was actually surprised that he was taken alive. My expectation is that he would have been killed. Kudos to the professionals who found him and brought him in.

What do you think the reason was to want to have taken him alive?

The goal of punishment is, well, punishment. Perhaps a more accurate or encompassing question would be, "What is the role or goal of justice in treating a despot?"

I think its a wasteful charade to assume he's innocent until proven guilty. The questions are who was harmed and to what degree is he culpable? After that's established then we move to the questions I posed in the first paragraph. We may wish to ask for whom do we seek justice, who were the injured parties? I should think that the Iraqis have the greatest injury and thus the greater claim.

The role of justice is interesting. I think its to give the victims and society a sense of fairness in their lives. What gives fairness? Well, punishment of the perp doesn't do much for the vic. Punishment is aimed at the perp. Vengence does wonders for the vic. We don't call it vengence in our modern, sensible society. We euphemistically call it, "closure".

So, what kind of "closure" would be appropriate for the people of Iraq?

I doubt they'd be especially satisfied with a bunch of fatcat gringos deciding that, so it has to be something over which they believe have final control. Otherwise its just us know-it-all westerners deciding whats best for them. We have proven time and again that is a plan with a lousy outcome.

Botnst