Gosh, thanks for the dispassionate, intelligent, and level headed response, Kirk. I look foreword to an endless series of equally thought-provoking assertions in the future.

B, I don’t get it. If it is a device, to what end other than throwing pitches in the dirt?

__________________
...Tracy

'00 ML320 "Casper"
'92 400E "Stella"

A) Going to agree with Jim - internationalize and Iraqify it as much as possible. Unfortunately we broke it and therefore have really bought it. This sitch has no easy answers unfortunately

B) Complete our Afghanistan campaign and bring pressure to bear on Pakistan for cooperation in getting OBL.
Start an initiative to combat the propaganda about evil America coming from the Madrassas and Imams.
Increase our Special forces and covert ops to take out known fundamentalist agitators and terrorists all over the world (these 2 tools have been sorely underutilized).
Completely reevaluate our foreign policy in the middle east with regards to our support of Israel and oppressive regimes. I personally feel that our support of the Israeli state is a large part of why we find ourselves in our current situation.
Increase funding for R&D for alternative fuels and their uses.

What special facts do you need? We made a claim they had WMD's, and based on that claim, committed military mass murder on tens of thousands of Iraqi's - not only soldiers, but thousands of women and children. An act of that magnitude under the simple laws of human decency require a justification, and a certainty of evidence, otherwise it is no different than putting men who haven't had a trial in the electric chair. Instead, we murder these people, and then when the reason we did it is shown by commission after commission, and by Bush's own hand-picked inspectors, to be absolutely unsupportable, you offer an excuse by saying "the jury's still out". People are supposed to be executed after the jury gets back in the room, my friend. We have massive amounts of blood spattered all over all of us.

You and I are in total agreement. Very well said.

I would also have to say That Guy said it correctly. There should be no question that our support of Israel is turning us into the boogey man in the Arab world. How to deal with that is another story. One deserving of serious study and debate. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Unfortunately, according to my European friends, which I have many, some even the evil French, the reason we won't get much UN and NATO cooperation is due to the poor diplomcy of the Bush adminstration in regards to our European allies. They despise him on a level I don't think the average American appreciates, and will do as little business with him as possible. His current trip to Europe is a disaster, instead of troops and money they are going to supply "training" for Iraqi police forces, and the Iraqis have to be flown to Europe to get it, and the Turks offered him nothing and complained about the Kurds. Hoping for more NATO
and UN involvement is the best reason to vote Bush out.

I'm not so sure if the UN is the right body to get in charge of Iraq: they were bombed out last year, and there's HUGE resentment among the Iraqi people because of the embargo that apparantly killed thousands of children. For that matter, any Western body will be suspect. Perhaps a non-western body like the Arab League could help out.
Problem is that by removing Saddam, the whole balance of power in the Middle East is fundamentally changed. As could be foreseen, Iraq is now a complete vacuum and US presence is only a temporary solution. Sooner or later, this vacuum will get filled, and the most likely one (capable) to do that is Iran, maybe Syria, both considered member of the 'axis of evil' however... Jordan might offer better opportunities prospects to benefit Western interests.
All other has my full support, incl. US' Israel-policy which in my view is one of the root-causes of this whole conflict.

__________________
2011 Prius

Wow, analysis sine ad hominem, V. Congratulations.

Bot

Do unto others has you would have them do unto you

Love your neighbor more than yourself

Thou shalt not murder

Anymore you have forgotten?

Which would you care to start with? The Christian Golden Rule is a nice one.

"Do unto others has you would have them do unto you".

I'd appreciate it if folks deposed a murdering despot from absolute power over me and my countrymen.

Next?

B

I'd appreciate it if you and others like you formed you own little anti-despot army and leave those of us who don't want to be accomplishes in mass murder out of it.

They should fight for their own damn country instead of asking our kids to die for them. And the fact they continue killing our kids after we have performed this wondorous liberation for them speaks volumes of their gratitude.

Bot, you usually do better than that. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)

Jim, so do you.
Bot



Al-Qaida vows to continue attacks against Europe: paper

www.chinaview.cn 2004-07-02 17:57:52

LONDON, July 2 (Xinhuanet) -- An Arabic-language newspaper based here reported Friday that a group related with al-Qaida said it would continue to attack Europe after a three-month truce allegedly promised by al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden ends on July 15.

"To the European people ... you only have a few more days to accept bin Laden's truce or you will only have yourselves to blame," the Asharq al-Awsat newspaper quoted parts of a letter from the group as reporting.

"Muslims in the West should depart to Muslim states if they can," said the letter purported from Abu Hafs al-Masri Brigades, which claimed responsibility for the March 11 train bombings in Spain.

"Those who cannot should take precautions and live in Muslim areas, have enough food to last a month, find ways to protect themselves and their families, leave enough money in the house to last one month or longer and to pray a lot and put their fate in God's hands," the group said.

According to the paper, the letter was dated July 1. The authenticity of the letter has not been verified.

An offer allegedly from bin Laden said on April 15 that al-Qaida would extend a truce to European countries if they withdrew troops from Muslim nations, which had been rejected by several European states. Enditem

This is the new me. Less wordy. Jim

__________________
Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)