last year, i acquired an extremely low-mileage[20,300]1997 s500coupe. it was starmarked for a year. i purchased an additional 2 years. as of april, 2004, i started year two of the starmark warranty.

i don't do m-b dealerships these days. that is what led me to renewing older benzes with low mileage, cherry benzes.

i have taken this car to m-b sugarland, however, twice. that is an 85 mile jaunt one-way. oh, there is a dealer nearer, but it is an auto-nation stealership...not to be dealt with, that is why i abandoned acquiring new benzes.

A. m-b sugarland saw this vehicle at 24,000 miles. did an oil service, did some suspension warranty work. did an alignment at my expense, which revealed the need for the suspension parts replacement under warranty, replaced wiper blades.

no mention was made of any routine maintenance to be performed according to a m-b schedule.

B. m-b sugarland saw this vehicle again at 32,000 miles for some warranty work.

no mention was made of any routine maintenance to be performed according to a m-b schedule.

C. now, i have taken this car into my local indy to replace fast-wearing dunlops with yokohama avid v4s. while doing that, since the selling dealer finally furnished a new rear-view mirror to replace the floppy one that they hoped i wouldn't find when i picked up the car, he will replace it.

now, the car has 35,000 miles. oil and filter have 3,500 miles with dino. i want it changed. brake fluid was changed in april of 2003, i want it changed.

indy suggests that coolant also be changed, but indy will be using something other than m-b formula. i don't argue with that, but when i argue with his coolant selection, he tells me that it is compatible with the m-b specs.

then he urges me to have the m-b 30,000 mile scheduled maintenance in its entirety be performed.

some aspects of this schedule i think are quite all right. others i consider quite unnecessary. such as spark plug replacement, for instance.

and atf change-out.

so, i told my indy that i would stipulate my own version of the 30,000 mile maintenance schedule.

and he started to argue with me. one of this arguments was that failing to do the maintenance according to m-b dictates would void my starmark warranty.

i put up with that and then had to tell him that m-b sugarland had the car at 32,000 miles and made no mention of a need to perform a 30,000 mile scheduled maintenance servicing.

and that the selling dealer, m-b san antonio, even though their records should reveal that they sold a 1997 sonderklasse with only 20,300 in april, 2003, sends me scheduled maintenance reminders noting that the car should be ready for its 90,000 mile maintenance.

what do you folks think about these maintenance issues?

all ears..

You just bought a very expensive car. What is the issue for you? I would think that someone with the means to purchase such a fine car would not want to be stranded by the side of the road somewhere for the sake of a few hundred bucks worth of maintenance. Did you read your owner's manual? If not, then follow your indy's advice, which sounds very good to me. If you did read your manual, then follow those instructions for maintenance. Who cares if the M-B dealership mentioned it or not? If you have the maintenance work done then please enjoy the car for years to come. If not, please do not post it for sale on this board.

__________________
Chip Johnson

ALLOW ME TO DISTILL THE ISSUE....

for the preservation of a starmark warranty, must a m-b dealer conduct the maintenance?

for the preservation of a starmark warranty, must all aspects of a scheduled maintenance be conducted?

lastly, if one uses an indy, is the starmark warranty invalidated?

oh, and just so you will know, i own a number of benzes. and other vehicles. all of them exquisitely well-maintained. all carrying acres of maintenance records.

i just have this thing about some maintenance tasks being performed that i consider irrelevant. spark plug changes at a scheduled interval for instance.

and atf changeouts at scheduled intervals. even my old friend, a benz dealership service manager thinks that routine atf changing is not a good idea. i tend to agree. only tranny failure i ever experienced occurred within miles following such a scheduled fluid change.

and i would never sell one of my benzes on this board. hell, i have never sold one of my benzes. oh, i gave my 220 to my mom in 1976. and i traded my 1976 450sel for my 1986 560sel. and i gave my 1986 300e to my dad.

i continue to own and operate these cherry benzes: 1979 6.9[52k], 1986 560sel[260k], 1987 560sec[90k], 1995 e320cab[12k], 1997 s500c[35k].

with the exception of someone having keyed the 6.9 and the 560sel, these vehicles appear virtually new. cosmetically and mechanically.

maintenance is not a question of money. it is an issue of what really is required. see my name? i know something about spark plugs. a maintenance schedule that mandates spark plug changes at 15,000 mile intervals is a joke. and if that joke characterizes the rest of the recs, then can you see where i am coming from?

all ears...

Mr Champion,

Are you really a spark plug expert?

Mike

__________________
1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra

The problem with Starmark is you never know how well they prepared the car for the Starmark certification. The car would have been over 4 years old and would have needed quite a bit of prepping if they did it by the letter of the program rules. All filter that are in need of replacement (NOT the ATF filter or fluid!) would have been replaced, spark plugs, etc, so none of this would be required quite yet, not after a year. It would need a 15K service (roughly 20K miles to 35K) assuming again that all was attended to as it should have been.
If you bought it at Sugarland you can ask them to research what was all done for the Starmark mechanical certification (in addition to the inspection itself, in other words what did the car need to have done for Starmark certification.
Any maintenance you have done I would certainly hang on to the receipts, but having a non-dealer do maintenance certainly doesn't void the warranty. I am unsure about non-performance of maintenance, this I would imagine could be construed as "vehicle neglect" to MB if a problem were to occur, which is why I'd hang on to receipts especially in this case.
I would rather insist (on principle) that MB coolant be used. I would be a bit hesitant to use any other coolant, but the guy may be correct that "it meets MB specs", but how to prove it? Generally most agree the MB coolant is what's best, and the cost isn't that out of line for it. I would double-check what was done for Starmark though, I'd be VERY disappointed to find out that the coolant flush and brake fluid flush were overdue or even within a YEAR of needing to be done when the car was certified for Starmark. It just shouldn't need much for maintenance work this soon.

Gilly

PS I'm pretty sure that's a 722.6 transmission in it. Should make for an interesting argument with the Indie mechanic to be sure, but I'd stand my ground and tell him to keep his mitts OFF the tranny! Period!
Mike, I think you are thinking of ARTHUR Champion, not Albert.

__________________
Click here to see the items I have up for auction at EBay

Click here to see a photo album of my '62 Sprite Project Moneypit (Now Sold)

Well, he did say:
Mike

__________________
1998 C230 330,000 miles (currently dead of second failed EIS, yours will fail too, turning you into the dealer's personal human cash machine)
1988 F150 144,000 miles (leaks all the colors of the rainbow)
Previous stars: 1981 Brava 210,000 miles, 1978 128 150,000 miles, 1977 B200 Van 175,000 miles, 1972 Vega (great, if rusty, car), 1972 Celica, 1986.5 Supra

OH, I see it now.......
Actually Arthur Champion is the namesake for both Champion Sparkplugs, and AC Sparkplugs.

Gilly

__________________
Click here to see the items I have up for auction at EBay

Click here to see a photo album of my '62 Sprite Project Moneypit (Now Sold)

actually, one of the inventors of the modern spark plug was ALBERT champion. a bicycle shopowner in boston from sevres france. it was albert's vision that porcelain insulators could replace stacked mica leaves. his backers were a protestant irish family by the name of stranahan.

albert was a lover of the good life. good friend of louis chevrolet. as a bon viveur, he was not relished by the bluenose, gangsterish stranahans. they eventually stole the business from him after they moved the business to toledo, ohio.

whereupon he was financed by the visionary william crapo durant. and albert started over again in the loft over the buick works in flint. originally named the champion ignition company, the stranahan's sued over this use of albert's last name. they won. that is how the champion ignition company became A[lbert] C[hampion]. after the failure of durant, and the formation of the general motors corp by alfred sloan, the duponts, and morgan's bank, AC became the AC spark plug division of the general motors corporation.

and initials are sort of interesting. perhaps you know of the brit spark plug brand known as KLG. the initials stand for the guy who invented the idea of heat range. described by the brits as hard vs soft. described in this country as hot versus cold. and more accurately should be described as fast versus slow.

K[enelm] L[ee] G[uinness].

albert champion shares an honor with ransom olds. he has an automotive product named for him. CHAMPION. and he has a product named for his intitials, AC.

R[anson] E O[lds]. OLDSmobile.

Albert,

What is your recommended interval for spark plug replacement?

__________________
Zafar
94 E320 58000 Miles

From what I know of him and his line of business, yes, Albert Champion (the 'living' one here on this board, not the AC founder who has passed on) is one of the world's foremost authorities on spark plugs and ignition-related issues.

Cheers,
Gerry

well, thnx, gerrry. it's been a while. all is well with you i trust. i see you finally splurged for the 500e. was it the one you once told me that you had your eye on?

concerning spark plug change intervals...

i think that there is no simple answer. how you are using the engine might govern change interval considerations. for instance, if you are using the engine in a continually high peformance, racing mode, i would be replacing spark plugs with some frequency[i.e., before each event].

on the other hand, if you are using the engine as a daily driver in urban traffic, with few italian tune-up opportunities, you could empirically determine the change interval on your own. to do that, i would install a fresh set of plugs after having checked them electrically and checked the gap dimension. i would make sure to fit them using an accurate torque wrench. and i would keep a log. recording all gasoline purchases and figuring out your miles per gallon at each fueling. at 5,000 miles, pull the plugs and examine them with a magnifying glass, measure the gap dimensions. repeat this inspection every 5,000 miles. at some multiple of these inspection intervals, you will conclude at what mileage level the spark plug's require replacement.

if you have access to a scope and can determine secondary voltage levels for each cylinder, this would be important evidence in the determination of when spark plugs should be replaced. however, for this to be a relevant measurement you would want the engine to be "loaded" - idling would not be a particularly relevant condition.

there may be another consideration governing spark plug change intervals, however. and it is a consideration that i don't know how to weight, since i have little experience with aluminum cylinder heads. i have heard that there may be an argument favoring spark plug change-outs so as to prevent the galvanic welding of steel spark plug shells into aluminum cylinder heads. it's possible i suppose, but so far i have seen no proof of it occurring with an engine that is operated from time to time.

in my experience, most spark plugs that are difficult to remove have either been cross-threaded or over-torqued. and that is why i recommend a balance beam torque wrench for plug removal. note the beam deflection. for most 14mm spark plugs, if the beam deflects to an indication of 65 ft lbs and the spark plug remains unmoved, it is a warning to stop and think about how you want to proceed - because continuing to force the issue will probably cause you to break off a spark plug at its thread relief.

i am always astonished at how many will force the issue, doing damage, rather than reaching for the penetrating oil and practising patience.

never try to remove a spark plug from a hot engine if you can avoid doing so. let everything cool down.

lastly, the removal of tetraethyl lead from fuel radically altered spark plug life. the absence of lead salt deposits can allow spark plugs to last for thousands of miles beyond the experiences of the leaded fuel days.

there are other issues that govern spark plug durability, however. 2-stroke cycle marine engines do things to spark plugs that are not done by automotive application 4-strokes.

i have addressed the issue with you assuming your interest is spark plug change intervals for daimler-chrysler vehicular engines.

happy trails...

I don't think that not having the scheduled maintenance done would void the Starmark waranty. Lots of things are covered that are not included in any scheduled maintenance. BUT - I've been told I'm an idiot more than once.

__________________
dtf
1994 E320 Wagon (Died @ 308,669 miles)
1995 E300 Diesel (228,000)
1999 E300 Turbodiesel ( died @ 255,000)
2006 Toyota Tundra SR5 AC 4X4 (115,000 miles) rusted frame - sold to chop shop
2011 Audi A4 Avant (165,000 miles) Seized engine - donated to Salvation Army
BMW 330 xi 6 speed manual (175,034 miles)
2014 E350 4Matic Wagon 128,000 miles
2018 Dodge Ram 21,000 miles

All I can say is you go albert wow!

__________________
1997 E420 White

although from your first post I did not. I am not sure what you suggest a car company do, however. I doubt that people would invest in the time and effort you suggest to establish the proper moment their spark plugs should be changed - because it does not seem economically viable to do so. All the car company can realistically do is publish a schedule they think is right. Given your expertise (which I swear was not apparent from your first post - I feel totally snookered by that!) I accept that what you suggest is the best way for everyone to squeeze the last bit of life out of their $5 spark plugs, if they are so inclined. I am unaware of M-B policy as far as their Starmark warranty is concerned, but in the extreme case of someone failing to ever change their oil and their engine blows up as a consequence, I believe that person would have a very difficult case to prove to collect on the warranty. It would therefore certainly be a sensible policy to void the warranty if all recommended maintenance was not performed at close to the recommended intervals. It would be your choice as to whether the chance of voiding the warranty is worth the obvious savings involved in getting maximum life out of your spark plugs and ATF (see my tongue in my cheek here).

__________________
Chip Johnson

look, when tetraethyl lead was in the fuel, the car manufacturers recommended 10,000 mile change intervals. or twice a year, whichever came first.

now, benz wants to recommend 15,000 mile change intervals. why? as i see it, to feed their dealers. and by the way, it is not just the cost of the plugs, it is the price of the labor to perform the change-out.

quite candidly, spark plugs in the absence of tetraethyl lead, in a benz engine that gets some high speed running, should go 60k without failing.

the way i view it, the more often i can prevent a gd mechanic from changing any parts the better off my engine is. savvy?