Have you looked at the AFM plate to see if it is centered properly and in spec? Also have you made sure that the intake boot between the AFM and Throttle body does not have any cracks or leaks. A test is to have someone slightly push the AFM plate down while cranking and seeing if it starts! That puffing sound you hear and slightly feel is most likely the Idle Air Control Valve opening and closing. It will cause short bursts of sound and maybe some air as well. And it is inline with the vent on the valve cover! I am willing to bet your issue is a crank sensor or something like a massive air leak! Check the crank sensor, it is fairly simple to test. Must be above 600 or 700 Ohms if I recall correctly. No crank signal will normally cause no spark though and you seem to be getting spark and fuel at least. If the AFM has an air leak and the plate does not get sucked down a hair during cranking it will not supply enough fuel to start the cold engine and hold it running. Some on the 190Rev forums have had this problem. Myself I just replaced my intake boot due to cracking on Monday and the car starts and runs so much smoother now than before.

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~Jamie
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2003 Pewter C230K SC C1, C4, C5, C7, heated seats, CD Changer, and 6 Speed. ContiExtremes on the C7's.

1986 190E 2.3 Black, Auto, Mods to come soon.....

You can also check the resistance of the wiring to the glove compartment light. It might be a good idea to check the resistance value of each sensor in the car, or you could just reread posts #3, #8, and #13. Do they sell carburetor cleaner where you live?

Peter

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Auto Zentral Ltd.

What the hell was that for? I explained what the noise was as you had no clue! And checking resistance on a sensor is a good thing in my mind not a bad one. Takes a few seconds to check and then verifies that it is ok if it is within the proper value. For your information if the crank position sensor is bad the plugs will still fire until the engine actually starts, so if it is bad then the Ignition Module never knows when the engine runs so therefore as soon as the key is let go it kills spark! Easy to check, you unplug and check. Why load the throttle body up with carb cleaner if it is not needed. Since the more carb cleaner you stuff in there the less likely it is to run. Have you ever sprayed carb cleaner directly into a running engine's intake? They stall when there is too much. A better idea would have been ether! I have a can just for that purpose as I needed it when I was done with my head gasket and all since the mixture was so lean the engine would not start. Once started though it would run rough enough and stay running long enough to set the mixture properly. Couple sprays was all it took. As for the rubber boot, thanks for not believeing this can cause a problem. Look at the actuall 190E forum and check it out, it happens more often than you would think. And a simple test is a heck of a lot better than spraying carb cleaner for no reason what so ever. ***** a visual inspection will tell you more than that. And as an FYI I personally had a bad Water Temp Sensor and bad intake boot cause issues! They were both bad when I got the car, and I have sprayed many a can of carb cleaner in the intake to clean to no avail. So sorry if I don't quite think Carb Cleaner is god's gift to making an engine run. A loaded up intake would not stop the engine from ever running. But a massive air leak, or bad sensor would. The Water Temp Sensor tells the CIS-E what the engine temp is, to fire the cold start valve and actuate the IACV as well as lean or enrichen mixture via the EHA. Well if the sensor is telling the CIS-E that the engine is running at 120 degrees then it will lean the crap out of the mixture and the car will not start. Also if the base mixture is too lean it will not start. If the Crank Sensor is not good it will not start and run. ***** if the OVP is bad and it is cold out it will not start without help! So easy things to check are better than going out and dumping more money into it for Carb Cleaner, even though it is cheap!

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~Jamie
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2003 Pewter C230K SC C1, C4, C5, C7, heated seats, CD Changer, and 6 Speed. ContiExtremes on the C7's.

1986 190E 2.3 Black, Auto, Mods to come soon.....

Easy Jamie,

I didn't mean to step on your toes. Wax on. Wax off. Wax on. Wax off. I was merely offering my 30 years of experience as a factory trained Mercedes mechanic. I ran my own full blown shop for 20 years. A correct and complete diagnostic approach is the fastest way to determine why a car doesn't run as opposed to Easter egging and guessing at everything. All the things you mentioned are possible problems in a vehicle, but changing all the vacuum hoses in the engine compartment won't help if the pump can't put out a liter of fuel in 40 seconds. I have seen people try every trick in the book to solve a rough idle problem and spend hours. If they had started with proper diagnostics, they would have discovered in less than a half hour that the car had no compression in one cylinder by doing a compression test. It's like medicine. When a patient complains of coughing and shortness of breath, you don't send them for an MRI or a blood work up. You check the lungs for fluid with a stethoscope, and if the sound isn't good, you send them to radiology for a chest xray. I spend quite a bit of time here helping people, and I do get satisfaction when I can help them solve their problem. I do, however, get annoyed when I'm asked for help, and my advice is totally ignored. It is even worse when you don't even get a thank you for something you normally charge $70.00/hr for and give away for free on this site. I think these are the reasons that the professionals are dropping off this site. They are burnt out. There are many on this site who have shown appreciation, and I have their names. We professionals offer years of experience for free, and all we ask is a simple thank you. The original poster can follow whichever path he chooses, but I have several broken MBs that I have bought waiting for me to do the valve jobs, etc. This thread is going on a month now, and my interest is waining.


Peter

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Auto Zentral Ltd.

pepperref,
I was just wondering if you figured out the problem? When you do let us know.

Understood Peter. I thought you were ripping on me for my suggestions as well! I know what you mean though, sometimes the simplest things get overlooked. Like my 190E that I have been trying to smooth out the idle for a year. Only to finally figure out one big problem was the head gasket, and another clogged pre-cats! Then the intake boot I noticed when I had the head and intake off. Now she runs great through the power band but still has a slight idle I feel when in Drive! I replaced the motor mounts, tranny mount, cap, rotor, plugs and wires but still there. Well yesterday I think I figured it out, it is the damn passenger side motor mount I think. In reverse she is smooth as glass, in park she is almost perfect as well, in Drive however I can see whatever is in my passenger seat doing a little slow dance! I must of just got a crap mount. Was being cheap at the time and got a pair off E-Bay for like $60. Now I need to spend $80-$100 on a good one. Oh well live and learn.

__________________
~Jamie
_________________
2003 Pewter C230K SC C1, C4, C5, C7, heated seats, CD Changer, and 6 Speed. ContiExtremes on the C7's.

1986 190E 2.3 Black, Auto, Mods to come soon.....

Jamie,
The mounts are filled with ethelene glycol (antifreeze) and they leak. You can measure the mount to see if it needs rplacing. The bottom edge of the metal on the mount should be no closer than 12 mm from the subframe. If you had clogged cats, you should have experienced a power loss. You can check for exhaust restrictions with a vacuum gauge. Hook it up to intake manifold vacuum and run the engine up to about 2000. The vacuum should drop off and immediately recover to above idle readings. If it is lower than idle reading, you have restricted exhaust or late valve timing.

Peter

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Auto Zentral Ltd.

I have checked the exhaust, since I gutted the pre-cats and then cut the cat off cause I thought it was bad too. Then put the cat back on... All is good there now. I think the mootor mounts I got were just cheap ones and maybe a little more stiff than the factory. Like I said when in Reverse or Park the engine is not felt! But when in Drive it is. Not very much but I do not think that I should feel what the motor is doing when it is idling smooth and not jumping around at all. I have checked vacuum and it is steady in that state, as well as the tach on the dash and the tach signal from the X11 connector hooked up to a meter. Everything runs and shifts perfectly and smoothly, just at stoplights I can see the vibration in the passenger seat and feel it. I ordered a new mount, better safe than sorry and got one from a place I know rather than E-Bay. I will keep my E-Bay purchases to used items only now and not the new ones that seem to be of lesser quality than the ones I get from ***********************.

A side not on the clogged cats, yes I could not rev over 4000 rpm or drive over 60MPH due to the cats clogged. Cats clogged when the head gasket let loose! I did not even start the engine after I relaized I was getting oil in my coolant so the engine and head are fine and it never overheated, just sent burnt AF and Oil directly into the pre-cats. Stupid me when I broke them apart did not get all of the stuff out and thus had to cut the pipes at the cat to get the rest out. Don't anyone look under my car til I get everything brazed into place properly.... No leaks but she sure does look ugly under there with all the clamps....

__________________
~Jamie
_________________
2003 Pewter C230K SC C1, C4, C5, C7, heated seats, CD Changer, and 6 Speed. ContiExtremes on the C7's.

1986 190E 2.3 Black, Auto, Mods to come soon.....

First off, let me apologize for not getting back to all of you sooner. It's simply a matter of time I have available to get back to the car. Beside my day job, I've been very involved the last 4 weekends volunteering for a youth soccer league. So while the 190e is my first choice as a daily driver, I do have another car available to me while she's down.

Autozen - Your 2/15 recommendations are still my first priority and I will post the results as soon as I can try them. Hopefully, I can get a break in the rain this weekend. Please don't let my perceived 'lack of interest' discourage your contribution to this board.

Peppereff,

Standing by.

Peter

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Auto Zentral Ltd.

Thanks autozen, sorry to not having been able to come earlier.

This is exactly the kind of experience that helps everyone to find out where some sneaky malfunctionnings of our cars come from, without replacing blindly expensive modules.

On my car (a fantastic car by the way) 260E, 1988, 400 000 km, there are some erratic loss of power like stalling from fuel starvation or something else for which I have not yet been able to identify the origine.
One these days I will drive with the computer disconnected, to see whether the CIS and its periferals are creating the lack of power.

__________________
Keep us posted especially if your problem is solved
Present cars:
My car: E-class 420CDI, 2008, W211, V8, 180 000km

Wife's one: C-class 220CDI Sport Coupé, Euro, 2002, W203. 345 000km

Son's one: GLK class, 220CDI, 2009, W204

Sold: E-class 260E, 1988, W124, Wonderfull car sold after 489 000 kilometres of reliable services (engine M103, clutch, brake system and 5 speed manual gear box all original).

Sold: E-class, 320CDI, W210, 2000, 225 000km

I finally found some time to perform some of the tests suggested by the group.

I verified that the spark plugs were dry and checked for spark. I'm getting nice fat orange sparks. I also checked the coil after reading that 'weak' coils can be a problem. I'm getting nice blue arcs to ground off of the coil.

I sprayed carb cleaner onto the throttle plate but still no start.

Afterwards, I experimented with shorting the fuel pump relay. The fuel pump buzzes continuously but still no start.

I removed the short and then removed the CIS and ABS modules. On the second or third try, the engine turned over and idled roughly for maybe 5 seconds. I was only able to repeat this '5-second idle' a few times, but each time the engine stalled out. While this would seem to point at the CIS as a problem, the fact that it doesn't stay running throws some doubt into that theory.

In summary, I'm confident about having spark, the car almost runs without the CIS module, but without opening a fuel line, I'm still not 100% sure that I don't still have a fuel issue.

So, if everyone hasn't given up on me yet, I could use some more suggestions on my next step.

The OVP relay powers the KE ECU, idle control system, and ABS. If it opens up due to an overvoltage condition, blows the fuse due to excess current or fails due to an internal defect you will get an ABS light, have no idle control, and no cold start enrichment.

Duke

Hello Peter,
Thanks for your indication about functionninng of engine as indicated in this thread.

I tried it on a 40km drive and it worked perfectly. Except for starting at cold temperature (expected).

I have another question.
I changed the adjustement of the stop screw of the Throttle butterfly because I wanted to clean the throttle body.
I have never been able to find in any book or any forum the adjustment procedure of the stop screw to bring it back to nominal position.
I did it as good as possible but I believe it is not good enough (very difficult and I assume because of the high reactions from ICS connected module).

Without the ICS module connected, I found that the idle is a bit too high (900/mn) but very stable and regular.

I am wondering whether adjusting the stop screw of the throttle butterfly (and consequently the idle rev) without the ICS module connected would be the right adjustment way to do it.

Could you give advice on my finding?

In advance many thanks for your help

cc260E

__________________
Keep us posted especially if your problem is solved
Present cars:
My car: E-class 420CDI, 2008, W211, V8, 180 000km

Wife's one: C-class 220CDI Sport Coupé, Euro, 2002, W203. 345 000km

Son's one: GLK class, 220CDI, 2009, W204

Sold: E-class 260E, 1988, W124, Wonderfull car sold after 489 000 kilometres of reliable services (engine M103, clutch, brake system and 5 speed manual gear box all original).

Sold: E-class, 320CDI, W210, 2000, 225 000km

CC260E,
I'm sorry I haven't answered your PM yet, but I've been busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. I will get back to you soon.

Peppereff,
Based on your last post, it sounds like an ignition problem, and I'm suspecting a failed EZL module. The fact that you didn't even get a pop with carb cleaner tells me fuel delivery is ok. Sometimes to save the hastle of pushing a car with a failed fuel pump into the shop, one guy sits on the radiator support with the hood up constantly spraying carb cleaner at the throttle plate while the other guy drives the car into the shop.

Peter

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Auto Zentral Ltd.