I have a question for the group. This should possibly be a new thread, but it's a logical extension of this one.

Most of us are in agreement that no other car compares to an MB; however, most of the discussion centers around the cars of the 1980s and early 90s. A lot has changed in the automotive world over the past decade. How will the newer models fair historically?

newer MBs
 

I don't think the new MBs are as far superior in materials/assembly quality to other contemporary cars as the MBs of the '80s. But I do think the SLK will be a classic, as will the CLK coupes. The CLK is sort of the closest thing to a modern BMW 6-series there is. Beautiful cars. All SLs have aged well, so I think the current ones will, too. The new CL will probably become a valuable classic like the '60s 4-seater convertibles are now. I think the new S-class sedan is a masterpiece of technology, but I fear what will happen when they are 10 or 15 years old and things start to wear out. Will they be simply disposed of because the cost of repairs/upkeep exceeds the value of the car? I've noticed that this has happened to the BMW 750iL, which was a tech marvel in 1988 when it came out. Used 750s are dirt cheap these days, and I wonder if it's because buyers willing to take on the costs of ownership are hard to find. Any counter-opinions?
Colin

Very good question! When Lexus LS400 was introduced in 1990 at $36,600 (all numbers from IntelliChoice), it was a new feature rich model being sold at a near loss against a End-of-lifespan quality rich SEL420 ($62500). By 1999, the equivalent MB evolved to a feature rich (lower quality???) S430 at 18% more cost ($73900) than the 1990 model, while the Lexus had increased in cost ( 47%!!! ) to $53,800. (This increase despite 0% interest rates from Japanese banks to Japanese manufacturers for expansion, materials purchase, etc, while much higher interest rates applied to German manufacturers from German banks! On a level playing field, much more than a 47% increase would have been likely!)

The Japanese and German economies are each in different states, both from each other and from the US economy. The Japanese have had an aging work force and stagnating economy for 8 years, and are flirting with recession. The political priorities of Germany's Green party towards increased use of low cost highly recyclable vehicles results in laws that affect the quality of vehicles being produced. The state of the US economy, application of fair trade rules to Japan, and Environmental regulations influences the number of luxury cars being bought, country of origin, and what they will cost. And OPEC hovers over all this with gas prices!

It is anybodies guess which way the battle for market share will go. The trend now is towards leasing luxury cars with lots of gadgets. The trend 10 years from now may be towards purchasing high quality, economical to operate luxury cars designed to last 20 years.

[Edited by JCE on 03-28-2001 at 12:26 PM]

I personally don't agree to replace a 300E by a Lexus ES300 due to the build quailty of ES300 is totally unlike LS400- ES300 is a very very usual Toyota or say a refined Camry only ! The mechanical main difference between a Carmy and ES300 is the addition of a sub-frame which holds the engine and the chassis but also reduces the translation of vibration and noises to the passenger compartment...etc. HOWEVER, when the mountings between the chassis and the sub-frame becomes old, the power 'absorbed' or say lost to the sub-frame mountings become significant that you may feel that the acceleration is not as strong as before. Try a camry and a ES300, you will know what I mean. My uncle and my auntie got a 1992 ES300 with 80,000 miles and a 1995 ES300 with 10,000 miles and the above case applied on them too- the 1995 accelerated much faster than the 1992 one but once my uncle replaced the sub-frame mounts (expensive though), the power came back too. Things to maintain a ES300 is expected to be more- items like the window/ side mirror rubber frame is very easy to crack and excessive wind noise is produced. Internal door panel clips are easily snapped. Timing belt is due about every 60,000 miles and must be replaced with a new hydraulic tensioner...As long as you keep that kind of maintaince, otherwise it will become old soon. Don't feel offensive, just my point of view.:)

[Edited by Davis Lo on 03-28-2001 at 02:43 PM]

$.02 worth from someone who
 

has had Toyotas/Hondas/Mazdas and Nissans over the past 20 yrs.
right now - by far the best car I have ever owned is the 1985 300D. This car is full of character and the engine/drivetrain is about like a forklift truck engine when it comes to reliability. The E320 is a fine car but unfortunately, it is not done justice unless you get on the interstate running 80-100 mph. Forget it if your average trip is 5-10 miles. The Honda is a great vehicle but being the type of individual that likes to work on cars, I have to own an old MB to enjoy turning the wrenches. Heck, I never get an opportunity to do anything to the Honda except change the oil/filters/fluids and replace the brake pads/rotors as required. I have to have something I can work on every weekend. The Toyotas/Mazdas and Nissans I have owned were pretty much like the Honda (I am sure the Lexus is like this too). I guess that is the reason I like the 300D so much right now - there is alot to do to it :).
Jim
'85 300D
'95 E320
'97 Honda CRV

hmm...
 

Lets see...

Emissions Control Unit (E.C.U.)----34 posts
Monovalve--------------------------45 posts
A/C Evaporator--------------------160 posts
A/C Push button control unit------176 posts
Windshield Wipers-----------------165 posts
Valve Seals-----------------------285 posts
oil consumption-------------------184 posts
cruise control--------------------255 posts
sunroof broken---------------------48 posts
cracked leather--------------------16 posts

These are the results doing searches with the "match all" option checked. These are also the specific problems I have had, or currently have with my 300E. I am sure I am forgetting about some problems with my specific vehicle.

Additionally I did a search of the recall notices/T.S.B.'s on each vehicle, to be fair I looked up the 1994 E320.

1994 E320 Sedan recall/T.S.B.------115 total
1994 ES300 Lexus recall/T.S.B.-------66 total
1987 300E Sedan recall/T.S.B.------219 total (wow)
I did the search at Alldata.com

How about the "My MB is safer than any Lexus will be" Whelp, from Crashtest.com, who use a variety of different studies. (And I personally am a certified Accident Reconstructionist, and occasionally am called in to court to testify in motor vehicle accident cases).

MB 300E 1986-1995 Rating
Injuries---Acceptable
Death Rate-Excellent
Weight-----Good
Overall----Good

Lexus ES300 1992-1996
Injuries---Acceptable
Deathrate--Excellent
Weight-----Good
Overall----Acceptable

Very comparable in my opinion, with the slight edge given to MB in this category.

My point is that I originally thought that maybe I just got a bad car, but a lot of these problems are highly posted items. If the search parser were a bit better I could get more specific regarding these problems.

Of course every auto will have problems, every auto is different. My point is that I am getting a lot of flak for choosing a Lexus over a MB. If I get flak because its a personal thing and others just like the "personality" of MB better, then I am totally cool with that, you should be proud of your choice of auto. But if it is a question of reliability or quality, I dont think anyone can give me more than anecdotal evidence to choose an MB over a Lexus. I think this argument applies to the C and E smaller, and mid size MB's, as the larger, and the S class MB's are the ultimate, but come with the ultimate price tag.

I think I need to clarify that I did not post this with the intention to say "my Lexus is better than an MB", not at all. I was just posting my dissatisfaction with MY (repeat MY) MB, and stating my continued satisfaction with my Lexus, just personal choice. All cars will have problems and repair bills, regardless of their make and model. If my engine or tranny blow up tommorrow I wont say "damn thats what I get for buying a Lexus", and I am not saying "thats what I get for buying a MB" with the current problems with my 300E.

Lastly, in regards to the argument that "Lexus has no personality", I disagree. But thats just my opinion. I think it has a ton more personality than my MB, but then again I think the MB roadsters have a ton more personality than any Lexus ever made (thats why Im getting one!). Also whats up with the "well Lexus copied MB design"? So what? I am sure its an industry standard to steal and borrow ideas that work. In fact there is a lot MB should steal or borrow from other car companies in their designs.

But like I said, I am not saying which auto is superior, both companies are great. I still love certain MB vehicles. Just didnt want you guys to get the impression I wanted to diss MB, just to say that the 2 vehicles are more comparable than has been stated here.

Pluses of my 300E versus Lexus, first impressions:

MB rides and handles a bit better. I do feel the bumps and the road a bit more with my Lexus, but I get much less road and wind noise in the Lexus though.

High speed the MB really shines, even with the 7 year difference. The MB also seems to be a bit more nimble around curves and corners, as the Lexus seems to "boat" a bit, definitely some flexing there that the stiffer MB does not have.

If I had my choice, which I will next summer, I would have the Lexus for the city and work driving, and the MB in the garage for long trips and highway driving.

SpineDoc:
You are certainly correct in that nobody should put down your choice of car - the Lexus IS a very fine automobile. And thanks for providing the Alldata link. I had been there before, but it looked at first glance as if the TSBs were a fee service, so I never proceeded. Your comment on all the TSBs on my '87 made me curious, however, and I had to re-visit the site to see why my car was so "bad". I found out that the "recall/TSBs were free, after all, and discovered some interesting data on the 218 TSBs for my '87:

26 TSBs were on mechanical problems, mostly rough idle/stalling/engine cutting out, next most on transmission damage after over-revving, then fuel pump problems, and several on gasket/oil leaks.

All the remainder were (In order of occurance): 1) Special repair instructions/trouble shooting before replacing/universal tips (how to mix window washer fluids, how to evacuate oil, correct use of spark plug wrench, etc.); 2) Tools (MB special tools, aftermarket meters and tools, electrical hazard with Fluke multimeter, etc.); 3) Parts updates; 4) How to accurately inspect; 5) Unnecessary work/parts replacement advisories; 6) Unapproved aftermarket add ons; 7) Tire info sheets; 8) Cleaning/preserving/storing (parts preservative, cleaning engine compartment, etc.); 9) Installing accesories (cd changer, etc.); 10) After accident inspection/replacement tips; 10) miscellaneous (Child tethers, EPA revisions, Extended Air Bag life, etc.). This made me feel a lot better about my car!

I then looked at the Lexus data - many of the TSBs had the exact same titles as the MB TSBs!!! (20 steps to auto trans diagnosis, etc.)

To cut through the fluff, I used the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration TSBs, which winnow out the "how to" info and concentrate on problems like AC, Engine, Trans, electrical, recalls, etc.

The government results were:
1987 300E MB - 15 TSBs
1990 ES250 Lexus - 54 TSBs
1990 LS400 Lexus - 83 TSBs

1994 E320 MB - 1 TSB
1994 ES300 Lexus - 11 TSBs

Both the Lexus and the MB are great cars, and good and bad individual samples can be found of each. You should enjoy whichever one you choose to drive. Enjoy your ride,and happy Springtime :)

Should have posted the link :( http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/tsb/servicemmy1.cfm






[Edited by JCE on 03-30-2001 at 02:44 PM]

great!
 

I'm glad you posted that info, whats the URL to that specific data? They are still very comparable in most areas, although I will take my 11 TSB's over my 15 TSB's on my old MB, LOL.

Glad we are on the same page regardless of what wheel we are sitting behind...

very interesting
 

I think if we dig even deeper we find some very comparable cars overall, and thats the point of my post.

Lets compare the 1994 E300 (Not the E320, I dont have a 1987 320E) to the 1994 ES300.

1994 MB E300-4 TSB's
1)Brake squeal
2)Traction system malfunction
3)Instument cluster malfunction
4)Bonding headlamp to housing issue

1994 Lexus ES300-10(not 11) TSB's
1)A/C maintenance advice
2)A/C switch problem
3)Advise on brake pads
4)Ambient temp displayed as 22 F
5)Seat belt extenders now available notification
6)Gasket problem in drivetrain
7)Advise on setting torque properly on steering wheel
8)Notice that steering wheel torque changed
9)Notice of knock noise in rear
10)Also notice of knock noise in rear

All in all there are basically no serious problems reported with each, and if you take the #2 and #6 in the Lex, then I call the score MB 0, Lex 2, which is very comparable of course. Its interesting to see that even stripped of the "fluff", even the NTSA "fluff", they still come out neck and neck, the point of my post.

Didnt check out the 87 300E NTSA data too close, but looked like the TSB's on the 87 were a bit more serious, looked like brakes, electrical, etc.

cheers...=)

You are probably better off.
 

I think you will be better off. I prefer the feel and ride of the MB, but personally I am getting real tired of working on my 190E 2.6. At first it was kind of fun, like a new hobby. But after 2 years, it is still a continual string of minor failures, and it's getting old. 2 weeks ago it was the little plastic thing that holds the throttle cable in place left me stranded along I 75 at night. Then last week the belt tensioner decided to pack it in, and they want $200 just for the part. If I listed everything I've done to this car in the last 2 years, you wouldn't have time to read it all. It's not just the fact that it uses more oil than an old Chevy and that the door panels are warping like crazy, it's everything combined. I can't trust it. My 1972 Chevy has a better chance of getting me across town than my MB. Enjoy your expensive Toyota. I suspect that it will treat you well. Wayne

still open?
 

Man I cant believe this thread is still open. Actually the more engaging, and enlightening thread is in the open discussion under "Mercedes vs. Lexus".

Update on the Lex after having it for a couple of months. It is so much better than I expected. Lexus makes one seriously smooth automobile, both mechanically and comfort wise. I actually went and test drove a 2001 ES320 because I felt guilty about leaving the MB fold, but after that test drive I do not feel guilty anymore. I will hold out for my SLK or for my S600 (hah), but not one of the mid levels.

It is kind of weird though going a whole week without having to add oil to my car, Ive almost grown to miss it.

To add my own two-cents worth...
 

At various points in my life I have owned, in alphabetical order: Cadillacs (Sedan de Ville and Seville), Chevys (Impala SS, Malibu SS, Nova SS, Suburban), Ford (Maverick), Mazda (626), Mercedes (420SEL, 300SD and 250SE), Oldmosbiles (Cutlass and Delta 98), Toyota (Corolla) and, Volvos (740GLE sedan and wagon and 940Turbo). Some were bought brand new, most were bought used. Some were cars I restored. I can safely say that I have driven cars from every car-making continent.

The most fun, kick-in-the-pants cars were the three SS Chevys, but then again any Chevy with the SS designation is going to be fun to drive (at least on a straight line). The worst car was the Toyota. What a piece of underpowered junk. The most over-hyped cars were the Volvos (yuck!).

But, without a doubt the best cars, have been the 3 Mercedes. The 250SE was a funky little car that was easy to maintain and fun to drive around town. I sold it for more than what I had paid for. The 300SD was a rock-solid performer that carried me up and down from Southern to Northern California in style, safety and economy. Loved that diesel sound! And the classiest ride, by far, is the 1991 420SEL, the last year for the W126 body. The 420SEL is big, fast, safe, luxurious, well put together and at nearly 200K miles it outperforms the Seville with only 60K in the odometer.

I've have looked at the Lexus LS430 and while technically well-executed, I sincerely doubt that it will run as well as my 420SEL after 200K miles have run though its odometer. If I had to chose among Japanese luxo cars, I'd probably get a new Infinity Q45. Reason? The Infinity has a lot more style than the Lexus.

Spinedoc (Are you a chiropractor? I like your screen name) if your Lexus makes you happy, then more power to you. After all, this is why we live in the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave, so we can drive whatever wheels we like (and can afford). I'd hate to live in some commie country where I have to wait five years and pay 3 times my annual income to buy some crappy (what was the name of that car made in the former East Germany Republic???) car that will fall apart in 6 months (anyone ever drive a Yugo?).

I have heard a lot of good things about Lexus over the years. For example, don't ever lock yourself out because even locksmiths have trouble getting into them. I was hoping to get one someday when the prices came down, but they stubbornly maintain their value. Around here, a 1990 or 1991 still goes for 9K or 10K, which to me is a lot to pay for a ten year old car with 150,000 miles or thereabouts on it. MBs mainly interest me because I like diesels, which after the 1984 models aren't too plentiful anyway. Enjoy whatever brand you drive.

I once traded a nice 16 guage LC Smith double for a new 870 with a ventilated rib.Bet a dollar Larry Bible knows witch one I'd like back.......
William Rogers....

Back when I was younger, I traded a 72 280SE for a 78 Datsun 280Z. Anyone care to guess which car *I* miss?