Draining torque converter?? w140
 

I was wondering if the s600 (1992) has a drain plug on the torque converter? I was thinking about doing this myself. And wondering how tough of a job this would be? What fluid would you recomend to replace the old trany fluid with?

Any tips, trick, or what not to do?


Thanks.

I'm pretty sure that you have the torque converter drain. I'd recommend Mobile 1 ATF, mostly because of other's recommendations here. I have yet to put it in mine, although I did recently buy some.

I plan to change it in stages, first draining and filling the pan, running for a few hundred miles, then dropping the pan to change the filter and draining the converter. I figure that if I don't drive it too far, I'm not likely to plug the filter with crap that the Mobile 1 might break loose.

Just to get a quick idea, how much trany fluid (qts) would it take to do the pan and torque converter?? Also how much do you think it would cost for a shop to drain the converter and pan and change the trans filter? If its outrageous I will do it myself.


I did a few transmission filter changes on my camaro I would imagine the basic idea is the same right??

Also lets say I used just a "regular" trans fluid would I use dexron III or what? would I use?

Regular would be Dexron 2 or 3. I don't recall the capacity, but I think it's six or seven quarts. Certainly not so much that the price of Mobil 1 is a real factor.

I don't know how much a shop would charge for the job. I do know that the dealer would charge too much for my taste, and I don't want to take it to a non-MB shop.

I believe the guy i bought the car from asked the mb dealership when we both took it to have the smog done at the time of the sale. I want to say the dealership said $425.00 :eek: I know working at a previous shop we charged around $125.00- $160.00 can anyone let me know if that sounds right?

I can believe 425 from the dealer, but I wouldn't pay that. I would pay less than $200 if I trusted the shop. Unfortunately, I don't.

I was hoping someone would chime in here on my idea of a partial change before the full change. Perhaps I just need to be patient.

I just changed oil & filter and drained the converter on my E320. Filter and pan gasket from Benz is about $50+7 qts ATF + 1hr labor @$100. You guys do the math.

Ok that doesnt seem bad if Im reading it right. It cost you about $160??? If so thats not actually to bad for mb to replace the trans filter, gasket, and drain and fill the transmission right??

It cost me the parts, I do my own labor. If I still was in the business, I'd charge an hour labor @$100/hr.

Hmmm I bet it would only take mb an hour worth of labor, but I could of swore they told the previous owner $425.00 and theres no way I would pay that for a transmission fluid and filter change.

I wouldn't pay $425 either. Was there additional work included in that figure? It's way high, even for a dealer.

They didnt mention any additional work, and my first thought was damn I can get a chevy tranny rebuilt for damn near that. I called a local pep boys just to get some kind of idea how much a regular place/ non mb would charge and they said between 125-150. So who knows.

So I'm not sure what Im going to do, my biggest fear is that if I did the work I would mess something up or damage something. Thats why I love taking it to a place and watching them the first time so I know what steps to do.

See my thread on ATF change. I don't know what gearbox you have but it can't be that different, mine is a 722.6

http://mbclub.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=23969

I would recommend using only MB ATF. If you've ever done an engine oil change, you can do an ATF change. It will help to have a gearbox dipstick. Here is an image of the markings for the 722.6 box dipstick.

Please note that this dipstick may not be suitable for your transmission!

His transmission, like mine, is quite different. It has a dipstick, and MB does not sell the fluid.

Hey Matt just trying to clarify yours and my trans are the same or yours and the above poster?? Just trying to figure out?


Also does anyone know what this transmission is exactly called for a 92 s600? I think its like a 722. something??

Without looking it up, I would guess 722.3. Mine is a 722.4. Both of these take Dexron 2 or 3, whereas the 722.6 takes MB fluid only.

Cool, so basically I could go into any kragens or part store and buy dexron 2 or 3 and it would be fine??

Yes. I would still recommend Mobil 1 ATF, as it's synthetic, but it's your transmission.

If I bought the mobil 1 atf theres no special brand/type?? Just mobil 1 atf synthetic or what?

That's right. It's just called "Mobile 1 ATF." We have it easy, compared to folks with the electronic transmissions.

722.6 transmission requires MB fluid according to MB. The earlier W140 transmissions use Dexron III according to MB.

Brett

how do i tell if i have a 722.3 or a 722.6???

You do not have a 722.6.

The transmission in that car is a 722.3, and yes it has a drain plug. You can use dexron III, because of the HP of that engine I would recommend synthetic ATF. I charge $250.00 for a Transmissions flush with synthetic ATF with a filter and pan gasket.

I noticed some people dont advise a trans flush? But do recomend a filter and pan gasket with a drain and fill? Im not sure if your talking about one of those power flushes? Or just a drain and fill?


Also if I can ask why 250.00? NOt that im questioning your price or anything but I know a reg. place charges like in the neighborhood of 150 bucks? Myself and a previous poster were wondering if there was extra labor or why the dealership would be charging 425.00 for a trans filter, gasket, fill?

Thanks.

I did mine on my 1992 300-E the workshop manual calles for 6.5 quarts with the tork converter drained and a new filter.when tighting the bolts to the pan donot over tighten it can cause the pan and gasket to warp. I used Red line transsmission fluid .
I suggest you consult your workshop manual on the correct proceeder and fluid capacity be for attemping to do this service. Buy a roll of the desposable blue towels at you auto parts store you will need them and a large capacity dain pan.
Best Regards
Bob Geco

See Im starting to debate weather I should do it myself or not, because of many reasons. 1) I would have to jack my car up and lay in the street underneath the car to do the pan and converter. 2) I never did a transmission filter or gasket on a mercedes and dont want to mess anything up or have leaks. 3) supposedly a few shops around here will do it for about 150 bucks or so, which doesnt seem like much since the filter, parts and fluid probably run 50-75 bucks or so.


So I'm kind of torn on what I should do.

If you have to jack the car up, it's gonna be a pain. The drain plug for the pan (if it's the same as mine) isn't at the rear of the pan, it's on the side. So with the car at an angle, there's still gonna be plenty of fluid left in the pan even after it stops running out of the pan drain plug. This equals real mess when you drop the pan. Additionally, there's only 1 drain plug on the torque converter, and likely, it's not going to be visible through the access hole when you cut the motor off. On my '92 300SE, I think all I needed was a 27mm socket and wrench on the crankshaft damper bolt to roll the motor around until the plug was visible. I don't know if that's how you'd do it on a V12. I seem to remember it's exceedingly bad karma to roll a V8 the wrong way using this method - something about timing chains skipping teeth, etc. - don't know if this applies to the V12 motor. When a torque converter can be drained, it's a complete waste of time (in my opinion) to service the transmission without draining the converter.

The work is "uber-easy" if the car is on a lift. What I do recommend is a torque wrench that measures in inch-pounds. The pan bolts only require 6 ft lbs of torque (72 inch pounds). The drain plug for both the torque coverter and the pan only require 10ft pounds (120 inch pounds). Under tightening the drain plugs results in leaks. Over tightening risks stripping the heads or the threads - BAD in either case. On the pan gasket, over tightening crushes the gasket = leaks. Under tightening = leaks, but at least you can snug it up a bit and get rid of the leaks.

Over-filling the transmission is also a VERY bad thing - causes foaming and all sorts of other bad things inside the transmission. On my 300SE, I added 3 or 4 quarts initially, then started the car and let it idle while I added up another quart or so (I think). I stopped adding fluid as soon as the level registered on the tip of the dipstick. Then I ran the car through all of the ranges on the tranny and let it idle some more. When the fluid was finally warm, I made sure there was some showing on the tip of the dipstick and then drove it around VERY gently to heat the fluid up. Once the motor was up to operating temperature, I checked the fluid and ended up adding about a pint more fluid to get to the full mark.

I just don't enjoy this type of work enough to get back under the car and do the work twice just because I over or under-tightened a fastener.

Unless you can fully flush the transmission, I'd stick with Dexron 3.

According to AllData, you have a 722.362 transmission. Far as I know, this transmission is identical to the ones used in the 500SEL and 400SE cars, except for stronger internals to support the torque load from that massive V12.

Honestly, there are plenty of places that should do this work for $150/200 max. The filter isn't cheap from MB, the fluid can be purchased from any auto-parts house, even WalMart will have it. The problem is that some shops jack the labor rate and/or the time when they see that 3-pointed star pull up in the lot. Any competent mechanic can change the tranny oil on this car and no reasonable mechanic should want more than 1 hour for the labor to do so. I try getting quotes from mechanics for labor-hour rate only - don't tell them what you want done or what they're gonna work on. A good mechanic is going to charge at least $60-70/hour - possibly a little more or less depending on your location in the US.

While it can be a pain, if you're not going to do the service on your own car, I'd find 2 types of mechanics I could trust - one to do mundane things like oil changes and tranmission services. The other needs to be a MB-specific mechanic - he's going to be much more expensive than the other fellow, but he's also going to have all the necessary computers required to effectively diagnose and fix problems on your car when they arise.

DO NOT take your car to Jiffy-Lube or some roll-in-roll-out shop for oil change and transmission work.

There was a "good california shop" place that was recomended on this site in benicia california. I believe it was called star motors or something like that. He wanted 190 bucks for an oil change, and yet the DEALERSHIP only wanted 90 bucks. I was happy at first when I found that shop in benicia but it seems he overcharges by way way way to much. It sucks cuz I would love to find a good shop in the vallejo/benicia area that doesnt overcharge and does good work.

Update: I called the dealership and wanted to speak to another person to make sure there wasn't an error. I spoke to the guy and he told me the filter was
$109.00, and the gasket was $16.00. that would be $126.00 for parts.
And about 50-60 bucks for transmission fluid he said. So thats $175.00.

So I asked them how did they get to 450.00 (i figured an hour of labor at 100 bucks)

The lady tells me no, we charge $150.00 and they show it would take 2 hrs worth of labor.

I cant believe the dealership. I WILL NEVER go to the dealership for anything. This is a complete joke.



Anyone in the bay area should check out this place, I just scheduled an appointment for the transmission filter and gasket change this week.
The guy was VERY VERY helpful. Talked to me like a normal person would, told me that the transmission filter and gasket change would run 259.00 ( a much better price from the dealership)
also sounded very knowledgable, told me in the 92- 9? that the rear differential fluid doesnt really need to be changed, said he has really never seen one go out in those years. ALso told me he would check over the whole car for free and just recomend some things and let me know. The guy definitely didnt sound like he was trying to rip people off, he explained everything, recomended things I should do and told me the rear diff. would just be wasting money. So It looks like im going to check this place out and let you know what I think.

I only posted my thread because the process is similar :(

I check and verifier transmission fluid level and condition, then the vehicle is road tested for correct shift points with no slippage. Once on the lift the tech checks for any visible leaks, front cooler lines, any transmission leaks which includes front and rear transmission seals and differential. Front and rear flex discs are inspected, drive shaft inspected for any dents or looseness. The customer is informed of any potential problems.


Once the visual inspection is completed the transmission pan is removed and inspected for excessive debris, if minimal the pan is cleaned and a magnet added, filter and pan gasket changed. Transmission flusher/exchange is connected in sires to a cooler line, 4 quarts are added into the pan (my machine has that feature) the vehicle is started and the transmission flush / exchange begins. That a lot of labor for $250.


A transmission fluid flush/ exchange does not cause transmission failure, what are you hearing.

I'm actually going to this shop and there doing it for 250 bucks. So that price doesnt seem high. THe filter alone is 109 bucks. So thats what threw me off we would do it at the shops i worked at and other places ( not on mercedes) but for like 150 bucks out the door.

Charging $109 for the filter would require very large cajones. It's readily available for about $20. Dexron III should be $2 something per quart.

Where can you buy the filter for 20 bucks? I called the dealership for a 92 s600 trans filter and they wanted 109 bucks. And the cheaper shop wanted 81 bucks. Where can I find the filter for 20 bucks?

I just checked kragens and even there transmission filter is 67 bucks. which is 20 bucks cheaper but I would love to know where I can get a 92 s600 trans filter for 20 bucks, deanyel.

.... sorry double post.

That's the thing, they are NOT a Chevy Turbo hydramatic TH400 or something. You are talking about a Mercedes 600SEL. Different animal.

I last had my Automatic Transmission serviced in 2002 for the'91 560SEC back in 2002, they charged $141.00, that was Pete's Independent Mercedes in San Francisco on Pacific Avenue. That's reasonable, however, generally they ususally charge "Pacific Heights" (read: HIGH ) prices for their work)
It's been about 15,000 miles since then, much of it city running,so I probably should think about getting it done again next year...hmmm)

Since you're new with the car, I would be VERY careful about trying to do this yourself the first time. You have some mechanical ability, working on the Camaro and everything, but then this is the top of the line Mercedes, it was an over $100,000 car when new, so if you try it yourself without knowing too much about it, (Can you say right now what kind of ATF fluid to use, how many quarts to put in and what to adjust right now, and the gaskets have to line up perfectly?) you might make a terrible mistake, and mess it up or damage something, so if it were me, I would take it to a GOOD Mercedes shop, or a GOOD dealer, and see if they would let you watch the process, as you said. (Sometimes even a dealer or shop can mess it up- it happened to me once with a '79 Cadillac, the shop "serviced the transmission" and it grenaded 3 days later and the shop denied it was their fault, I got stuck for a whole rebuilt transmission). At least if you had it done at a Mercedes dealer, they would have to - I hope! stand behind their work. But stay away from the MB dealer in SF - they can't be trusted.

If the job got messed up you would need another transmission, and I would bet for a 600SEL it would cost a fortune. That you don't need.
(That's just my opinion and I am *no* expert, like some of the other guys around here)

Jim Im just going to end up taking it to this place in antioch, independent mercedes service center. Guys there have a lot of exprience and charge 250.

Could be a pretty good choice
 

I'd heard about that place too, Will, and I think they advertised on this site. From what I heard, they are a couple of guys who worked for many years at the Mercedes dealer in San Francisco, and have a lot of Mercedes repair experience, and decided to open up a shop by themselves, it is a new shop I think (just this year) but I think they probably could be trusted. I would probably go to them, but it would be nice if they could let you watch them do the work, I always like mechanics which would allow that.

By talking to them you will see whether and how much they know about your vehicle. Just a thought, (I have never tried this) but sometimes you can get off to a real good start if you bring them a box of donuts or a couple of sixpacks of good beer, they are people too and might appreciate it and give your car some etra good attention. I 've never tried it, but it might be something to think about, it wouldn't hurt their feelings, and they might respond to it very well, I don't know). DON'T bring your own paqrts though, that's like goin to a restaurant with your own steak and asking them to cook it, they need to be allowed to have a reasonable profit on the parts too.

If your experience is good - or bad - the people here would like to hear about it, I haven't seen any feedback about the place I can actually remember, maybe because it is a pretty new shop.

This isn't some old Ford Taurus or something, it's a 600SEL, and it deserves the best of care. Hopefully they will deliver that. I think you are on the right track here.

i will definitely let you guys know this week since im going on thursday. The guy seems real cool he was giving me advice a normal person rather then a mechanic was giving me.


I'm going to see if i can watch him do a few things on the car. He also said he would check all fluids and a few other things free of charge. Im going to ask him if he knows any place that can repair that amp, and ask him about the srs, abs lights and a few other things.

http://catalog.eautopartscatalog.com/mercedesshop/sophio/wizard.jsp?partner=mercedesshop&clientid=catalog.mercedesshop&baseurl=http://catalog.peachparts.com/&cookieid=1Z515Q6881Z70RZ511&year=1992&make=MB&model=600-SEL-001&category=All&part=AT+Filter+Kit

There is the filter kit for your car.

MB trans are cake to drain the fluid on. Drain the pan, drop it. Rotate the engine till you can drain the TC, drain that. In the owners manual it tells you how much fluid it holds. Put it all together fill it up run it and check it.

If you can do it on a Chevy you can do one of these, its much simpler to do and these cars are built 10 times better so they include nice things. Like drain plugs in the pan, and the pan bolts bottom out so you cannot over tighten them.

Don't forget you have active suspension as well, you should change at least the filter if not flush it. Not sure if they call for flushing, the FSM would certainly cover this.

MB sells the FSM in DVD form, about $180 covers all the models, you should get it.

Might sound stupid but what is fsm??

Factory service manual

Oh ok. Never heard those initials before. Thanks.

In the Mercedes world there really are no good aftermarket manuals. So you need the factory service manuals. You can buy them as books for $500-$1k for most cars. There usualy are a bunch of books engine, body, climate control, suspension ect. But MB is nice enough to make them on CD/DVD for a small fraction of the cost of the paper manuals.

You need one to wrench on the car. If you know what you are doing MB's are very user friendly.

The only downside of the FSM's is that they are written for MB techs. They assume you know a lot so they skip over some steps.

Be Careful!
 

Just a word of warning to a lot of the DIY's out there regarding fluid changes with the 722.6. My S320 is sitting at my independant right now because of some "surprises" that came up during my regularly scheduled transmission fluid change. My car was shifting fine and drove in to the shop for its fluid change and is now is in limp home mode throwing codes afterwards. We are still in the process of sorting things out. This transmission has a number of connectors and computers that can become contaminated. After this experience with an experienced mechanic with a fully equipped shop and a Star Diagnostic Computer getting blindsided by a simple fluid change there's no way I would consider doing the job myself.

His car doesn't have a 722.6. His trans is similer to my 722.4.

If I had a 722.6 I'd just have the local dealer do it, $200 and its done with. If they screw it up its there problem.